0300
 1      VIDEOTAPED INTERVIEW OF
 2   
              PATSY RAMSEY
 3   
               VOLUME II
 4   
 5          August 29, 2000
 6   
 7   
 8    2140 The Equitable Building
          100 Peachtree Street
 9          Atlanta, Georgia
10   
11   
12   Alexander J. Gallo, CCR-B-1332
13   
14   
15   
16   
17   
18   
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20   
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25   
0301
 1                         APPEARANCES
 2   On behalf of John and Patsy Ramsey:
 3   L. LIN WOOD, Esq.
 4   Law Offices of L. Lin Wood
 5     2140 The Equitable Building
 6     100 Peachtree Street
 7     Atlanta, Georgia  30303
 8   . 
 9   On behalf of The United States:
10     MICHAEL KANE, Esq.
11     BRUCE LEVIN, Esq.
12     MARK R. BECKNER
13     TOM WICKMAN
14     TOM TRUJILLO
15     JANE HARMER
16   . 
17   Also present:
18     Ollie Gray
19     John San Agustin
20   .
21   .
22   .
23   .
24   .
25   .
0302
 1             VIDEOTAPED INTERVIEW OF PATSY RAMSEY
 2                          Volume II
 3                       August 29, 2000
 4            CHIEF BECKNER:  Okay.  Mrs.
 5   Ramsey, we only have a few more things we
 6   want to ask you to finish up today.  One of
 7   the things, I just want to give you the
 8   opportunity, if there is anything that you
 9   want to tell us, information that you have
10   that you didn't tell us yesterday during the
11   questioning, any other theories you may have,
12   anything like that.  
13            I just want to kind of ask you
14   an open-ended -- do you have any other
15   information you expect to be able to tell us
16   today that we didn't ask you about?
17            MR. WOOD:  I just can't let -- I
18   will submit that to you in writing.  That is
19   such an open-ended question for her to sit
20   here and try to be sure she could actually
21   give that all to you, Chief. 
22            CHIEF BECKNER: Okay.
23            MR. WOOD:  That would be almost
24   like her trying to sit here inventing in her
25   own mind a whole range of questions that you
0303
 1   could have asked her but didn't.  I will
 2   tell you, to the extent we have any
 3   information that relates to the question of
 4   JonBenet's death from our investigation or
 5   otherwise, we will give it to you.  I would
 6   rather do it that way than for Patsy to try
 7   to sit here today and try to give it to you
 8   off the top of her head.  Okay?
 9            CHIEF BECKNER:  Okay. 
10            MR. WOOD:  Is that okay with you,
11   Patsy?
12            THE WITNESS:  Well, I believe we
13   have been giving, all along the way, what
14   Ollie has come up with and Ellis and John
15   Foster.  I mean, as soon as we get
16   something, we send it over.
17            CHIEF BECKNER:  I was trying to
18   ask you what your thoughts were specifically,
19   having that information, had you developed
20   any thoughts?  I mean, obviously, you being
21   part of the family, as an example, any of
22   the names that your investigators have
23   provided to you, any of those ring a bell in
24   terms of known to the family, you had
25   interactions with that person, business
0304
 1   relations with that person?
 2            MR. WOOD:  If we get a specific
 3   name, if you want us to go pull names now
 4   and let her go through them, if you want to
 5   all go through them or if you have them.
 6            CHIEF BECKNER:  I guess I am
 7   assuming that, over the last three and a
 8   half years, you have been privy to names of
 9   people that your investigators have
10   investigated.  If that is not the case  
11     A.     Yes.
12            MR. WOOD:  But I am not sure she
13   memorized them.  We have them.  I can go
14   get them. 
15            THE WITNESS:  Yes.
16            MR. WOOD:  The problem is, for
17   you to, just to be fair, we've got names,
18   and if you want to go through each one of
19   them with her to see if --
20            THE WITNESS:  That would be
21   great.
22            MR. WOOD:  John can do that too.
23            CHIEF BECKNER:  My thought is, if
24   you are looking at 20 names that your
25   investigators have looked at, if a name
0305
 1   stands out as we had business dealings with
 2   that person, I would think you would remember
 3   it.
 4            THE WITNESS:  Well, there's a lot
 5   of them.
 6            MR. WOOD:  That you remember?
 7            THE WITNESS:  Well, I can't
 8   remember names because some of them I hadn't
 9   known before, but a lot of information has
10   come up that has been very interesting.  I
11   mean --
12            CHIEF BECKNER:  Let me ask you
13   this.  Do you recall seeing any of the
14   names, you don't have to tell me the name,
15   that said, ah, we know that person?
16            THE WITNESS:  Well, of course
17   they looked at Bill McReynolds.  We know
18   that person.  They looked at Linda Hoffman
19   Pugh, the housekeeper, and some family
20   members of hers.  They looked at Chris Wolf,
21   of course.  You know, and then there are
22   some people that have a record, you know,
23   that are kind of not so nice people like
24   this Helgoth and -- I mean, there are lots
25   of other names like that.
0306
 1            MR. WOOD:  How many names, Ollie,
 2   are we talking about?  How many names would
 3   you state right now?
 4            MR. GRAY:  That I would recommend
 5   them look at or something?
 6            MR. WOOD:  Yes.
 7            MR. GRAY:  There are probably
 8   six.
 9            MR. WOOD:  Other than the ones
10   that Patsy just went through?
11            MR. GRAY:  Yes.
12            MR. WOOD:  I am familiar with
13   names, and I don't remember them, Chief. 
14   That is why I say, if you want us to get
15   the names.  Have they been provided to the
16   Chief?
17            MR. GRAY:  Probably all except
18   the last couple, the Westminster that I told
19   you about and that kind of stuff.
20            MR. LEVIN:  I would suggest that,
21   if we are talking six or eight people, that,
22   when we finish with Mrs. Ramsey and get 
23   Mr. Ramsey, perhaps you or your investigator
24   could get that list and we could talk about
25   it then.
0307
 1            MR. WOOD:  Okay.
 2            MR. LEVIN:  Just for purposes of
 3   keeping things going.
 4            MR. WOOD:  Is that all right?
 5            CHIEF BECKNER:  That's fine, but
 6   nothing sticks out in your mind in terms 
 7   of -- 
 8            THE WITNESS:   Well, the most
 9   recent thing that sticks out in my mind is
10   that Ollie obtained the Hi-Tec boots that
11   belonged to Helgoth, and that was very, you
12   know, surprising to me that he came up with
13   those.  And I just am real curious as to
14   whether that -- you know, I don't know how
15   much of a footprint you all have, but does
16   it match and what have you done with that.
17            CHIEF BECKNER:  That is something
18   we are still looking into. 
19            Was Helgoth known, when that name
20   came up, was Helgoth somebody you knew prior
21   to this investigation?
22            THE WITNESS:  I don't know.  I
23   don't know what his business was or -- I
24   don't know any more about him than that.
25            CHIEF BECKNER:  The reason I am
0308
 1   asking, one of the theories, obviously, is,
 2   if this is an intruder, they had to know the
 3   family pretty well, they had to know the
 4   house, the layout of the house, they had to
 5   know some things about the family based on
 6   what was in the note, those kind of things.
 7            MR. WOOD:  And they could have
 8   otherwise learned all of that when they were
 9   there like they were in September of '97 for
10   several hours when the family was away? 
11   There is a chance that everything in that
12   note in terms of the family could have been
13   gleaned from different things in the house if
14   somebody had been in there, so it is not
15   exclusive the idea that somebody had to know
16   the family, while I understand where you are
17   coming from. 
18            THE WITNESS:  Oh, no, I'm --
19            MR. WOOD: You've got another
20   incident in Boulder nine months later, in all
21   fairness, where someone did camp out in the
22   house.
23            CHIEF BECKNER:  That hasn't been
24   proven.
25            MR. WOOD:  That is what the
0309
 1   parents say. 
 2            CHIEF BECKNER: That's what they
 3   believe, yes, but that doesn't --
 4            MR. WOOD: And they believe it to
 5   this day, from what I'm told, concluding that
 6   their daughter was a petite, small 
 7   14-year-old, didn't necessarily look her age.
 8            THE WITNESS:  And the girl who
 9   was molested, this same incident, and
10   JonBenet attended the same dancing school.
11            CHIEF BECKNER:  Right.  We know
12   that.
13            THE WITNESS:  So there could 
14   be --
15            MR. WOOD:  I think that is
16   probably something that we want -- one of
17   the people that you may or may not have,
18   what we understand, have not talked to, the
19   person who works there.
20            CHIEF BECKNER:  At the dance
21   school?
22            MR. WOOD:  Right.
23            CHIEF BECKNER:  I don't know.  I
24   can't answer that.
25            THE WITNESS:  I mean, that could
0310
 1   be --
 2            MR. WOOD:  If you can't answer
 3   it, it is kind of hard for her to be able
 4   to, in all fairness.
 5            CHIEF BECKNER:  In terms of
 6   whether we talked to that particular person
 7   you talked about.  We talked to over 600
 8   people.
 9            THE WITNESS:  But there could be
10   a situation there that I didn't know that
11   this particular person, but he, you know, saw
12   JonBenet and found out where we lived or
13   whatever.
14            MR. LEVIN:  Mrs. Ramsey, I think
15   the question, and let me see if I can make
16   it very simple, that the chief was getting
17   at was Mr. Helgoth's name, was that a name
18   that was prior to the murder of your
19   daughter?  I know since then you've became
20   familiar with it, but prior to the murder of
21   your daughter, was that a name you were
22   familiar with?
23            THE WITNESS:  No.
24            CHIEF BECKNER:  I don't think you
25   talked about Jeff Merit or Jeff Merit's wife
0311
 1   yesterday.  Am I remembering that correctly?
 2            MR. WOOD:  I don't know Jeff
 3   Merit.  I don't think you asked about him or
 4   his wife  
 5            THE WITNESS:  No, we didn't speak
 6   of him --
 7            MR. WOOD: -- or Jeff Merit by
 8   name.
 9            CHIEF BECKNER:  When Bruce was
10   asking you yesterday about people who were
11   mentioned as possible suspects, Jeff Merrick
12   or his wife was mentioned at one time.
13            THE WITNESS:  Right.
14            CHIEF BECKNER:  Do you not
15   consider either Jeff or his wife no longer
16   possible suspects?
17            THE WITNESS:  Well, early on we
18   provided a list, Boulder police or whomever,
19   said who could -- is there anybody that
20   could be angry with you all or you know had
21   a reason or who had access to the -- I mean
22   because we made lengthy lists of those.  And
23   I believe John, you know, mentioned Mr.
24   Merrick among that list because he had been
25   let go from Access.
0312
 1            And I remember very vividly that
 2   the day he was going to be asked to let go,
 3   I was afraid.  Not unlike the postal
 4   incidents that happen.  I was just afraid
 5   for my father and John and -- because you
 6   never know what people are going to do when
 7   they are asked to leave a company.
 8            And subsequent to that, when he
 9   was asked to leave, he made some threats to
10   John and I think maybe even to my father. 
11   That -- I mean, I am paraphrasing.  I don't
12   know exactly.  You can ask John, but
13   something like you are going to be sorry.  I
14   am going to bring this company to your
15   knees.  Just really, you know, ugly.
16     Q.     (By Mr. Levin)  Mrs. Ramsey,
17   since June of 19  
18            MR. WOOD:  Let me ask you, I
19   think what you were asking her is anything,
20   have you learned anything that has caused you
21   to have less concern about potentially
22   Merrick.
23            THE WITNESS:  No.
24            MR. WOOD:  Right now I can tell
25   you, Chief, until you all can tell us
0313
 1   somebody has been cleared, I don't think
 2   anybody that has been mentioned has ever, in
 3   our mind, been taken off of possibilities.
 4            I mean, you all haven't, as I
 5   understand, you all haven't officially
 6   cleared, I am not even sure beyond Burke,
 7   John Andrew and Melinda.
 8            I hear rumblings back from the
 9   White camp that April of '97 allegedly he
10   was cleared, but as I remember what I
11   learned about it, it looked pretty qualified.
12            THE WITNESS: All right.  Because
13   I don't know --
14            MR. WOOD:  We are not here to
15   clear anybody.  The question for her was
16   about --
17            CHIEF BECKNER:  I am asking her
18   what she believes.
19            MR. WOOD: If she's heard anything
20   that's changed her -- any other additional
21   information about Merrick other than what you
22   already had given them earlier.
23            THE WITNESS:  No.
24     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  Let me follow up
25   on that, Mrs. Ramsey.  How were you advised
0314
 1   before he was fired that he was going to be
 2   fired?  How did you know he was going to be
 3   fired?
 4     A.     I don't remember.  I think
 5   probably John.
 6     Q.     John told you?
 7     A.     Probably.  I can't think of where
 8   else I would have heard it, but I am not
 9   sure.
10     Q.     Before he was let go, what was it
11   about him, you said you were fearful that
12   day he was going to be let go, what was it
13   about him that made you fearful that day
14   before he was let go?
15     A.     I don't know.  I don't know if I
16   can -- I am not sure I understand your
17   question.
18     Q.     You said before he was let go,
19   you were fearful that he was going to be let
20   go.                   
21            THE WITNESS:  No, I wasn't
22   fearful he was going to be let go.  When I
23   understood that he was going to be fired
24   that day, I was frightened for my husband's
25   safety.
0315
 1     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  Because he was
 2   going to be fired that day?
 3     A.     Yes.
 4     Q.     Was there anything about Jeff
 5   Merrick you knew, violent propensities or
 6   anything of that nature, before he was told
 7   that he was no longer employed by Access
 8   Graphics?
 9     A.     No.
10     Q.     What was it that made you
11   fearful?
12     A.     Well, just because of, like, I
13   gave an example of the postal workers.  When
14   an employee is fired, you never know how
15   they are going to react to that.
16     Q.     Okay.  Were there other people
17   that had been fired by Access Graphics that
18   you had the same fear?
19     A.     I didn't know.  I guess I didn't
20   know many more people.  I knew Jeff Merrick.
21     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) Mrs. Ramsey, is
22   there anything since June of 1998, any
23   contact at all you had with Mr. and Mrs.
24   Merrick which has increased or solidified
25   your belief that they are viable suspects in
0316
 1   the murder of your daughter? 
 2     A.     I have not had any contact with
 3   them.
 4            MS. HARMER:  Mrs. Ramsey and Mr.
 5   Wood, I am going to cite a page in the
 6   book, 153.
 7            THE WITNESS:  Okay.
 8     Q.     (By Ms. Harmer)  You mention a
 9   kid by the name of Nathan that was living
10   with the Steins.  Was he living with them
11   prior to December of '96?
12     A.     Yes, he was.
13     Q.     And at any time did he look after
14   Burke or JonBenet?
15     A.     He would, on occasion, take them
16   to school in the morning.
17     Q.     Do you know anything more about
18   him, his last name?
19     A.     Inouwe, Nathan Inouwe.
20     Q.     Do you know how to spell that?
21     A.     I-n-o-u -- maybe y-e or -e.
22     Q.     Is he a white male?
23     A.     He is American, but of Japanese
24   descent, I believe.
25     Q.     How old is he?
0317
 1     A.     He has graduated now and is doing
 2   missionary work, I think.  Susan would know
 3   exactly where he is, but at that time he was
 4   a college junior or senior?
 5            MR. LEVIN:  Mr. Wood, can you
 6   facilitate getting the information to us so
 7   we can contact him?
 8            MR. WOOD:  I think we said
 9   yesterday, if you all make a hit list for
10   me, so to speak, point by point what you
11   want me to do, and we will do it.
12            MS. HARMER:  That is it.
13            MR. WICKMAN:  Mrs. Ramsey, does
14   the name David Charles Brantley mean anything
15   to you?
16            THE WITNESS: Brantley?
17            MR. WICKMAN: Yes, B-r-a-n-t-l-e-y.
18            THE WITNESS:  I don't think so,
19   no.
20            MR. WICKMAN:  Ollie, can you
21   write that name down?
22            MR. GRAY:  Just did.
23            MR. WICKMAN:  Thanks.
24     Q.     (By Mr. Wickman)  I wanted to ask
25   you, since your relocation to Atlanta, have
0318
 1   you, John, or Burke had any credible threats
 2   since your relocation here?
 3     A.     We have had, I don't know if they
 4   have been threats, we have had a lot of
 5   weirdos come calling.
 6     Q.     Physically to the house?
 7     A.     Yes.
 8            MR. WOOD: While you are all here,
 9   you all might want to check out one this
10   morning that called me.  Somebody called my
11   office, a female.  I don't make light of it. 
12   It was a pretty serious phone conversation. 
13   I am not expecting you all to deal with it,
14   but you might want me to save the tape
15   because she has called here before.
16            MR. LEVIN:  Have the Atlanta
17   police followed that up in the past?
18            MR. WOOD:  It never has been a
19   threat made to the level that I would call
20   the police, but the last two days it has
21   gotten to the point where I may because I
22   think it may be directed toward me.
23     Q.     (By Chief Beckner)  Would you be
24   willing to sign releases to allow us to
25   interview Ellis Armistead and David Williams?
0319
 1            MR. WOOD:  I think we talked
 2   about that, and I think that is something I
 3   would address.
 4            MR. LEVIN:  I have proposed
 5   written releases for both Patsy and John, and
 6   when we leave this afternoon, I will leave
 7   them with you and give you an opportunity to
 8   look.  It refers to the Colorado statute, so
 9   you can have some time to look them over. 
10   You can call me directly if you want to talk
11   about it. 
12            MR. WOOD:  Okay.  Did you all
13   make a decision about whether you wanted to
14   talk with Ed Gelb, Cleve Baxter?  I offered
15   them up for interviews with you, no holds
16   barred, waive the privilege.
17            CHIEF BECKNER:  We may at some
18   time.
19            MR. WOOD:  They talked to John
20   and Patsy.  They interviewed them.  So if
21   you will give me those, I will certainly --
22            MR. LEVIN:  I will leave them
23   with you.
24            MR. WOOD:  My concern, Bruce, and
25   obviously there are no secrets there, your
0320
 1   intentions, your being the prosecution's
 2   intentions, are not clear to us.  Obviously,
 3   as an attorney, we have to always be
 4   prepared for the worst case scenario.  We
 5   don't think it is likely or something that
 6   should happen.  So there is that balancing
 7   of trying to get you information from Ellis
 8   and David Williams that can help with the
 9   investigation but yet still maintain certain
10   information that might be important in any
11   potential defense of the case.
12            MR. LEVIN:  I understand.
13            CHIEF BECKNER:  Anybody have
14   anything else?
15            MR. LEVIN:  I do not. 
16            MR. WOOD:  Although if you all
17   stay tuned to the civil cases where the
18   discovery rules are fairly liberal, that is a
19   source of tremendous information somewhere
20   down the road both ways.
21            THE WITNESS:  Could I ask who is
22   David Brantley?
23            MR. WICKMAN:  Not at this time,
24   but I will talk to Mr. Wood.
25            MR. WOOD:  Okay.  Are you all
0321
 1   done with Patsy?
 2            MR. LEVIN:  We are.  Thank you,
 3   ma'am.
 4            THE WITNESS:  Thank you so much.
 5            CHIEF BECKNER:  Thank you for
 6   your time.
 7            (Whereupon, the videotaped
 8   interview of PATSY RAMSEY was concluded.)
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0322
 1   STATE OF GEORGIA:
 2   COUNTY OF FULTON:
 3     I hereby certify that the foregoing
 4   transcript was reported, as stated in the
 5   caption, and the questions and answers
 6   thereto were reduced to typewriting under my
 7   direction; that the foregoing pages represent
 8   a true, complete, and correct transcript of
 9   the evidence given upon said hearing, and I
10   further certify that I am not of kin or
11   counsel to the parties in the case; am not
12   in the employ of counsel for any of said
13   parties; nor am I in anywise interested in
14   the result of said case.
15   .
16   .
17   
18          ALEXANDER J. GALLO, CCR-B-1332
19          My commission expires on the
20          17th day of March, 2001.
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