0001
 1      VIDEOTAPED INTERVIEW OF
 2            JOHN RAMSEY
 3   
            August 29, 2000
 4   
 5   
 6   
      2140 The Equitable Building
 7        100 Peachtree Street
            Atlanta, Georgia
 8   
 9   
10   
     Alexander J. Gallo, CCR-B-1332
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0002
 1                         APPEARANCES
 2   .
 3   On behalf of John and Patsy Ramsey:
 4   L. LIN WOOD, Esq.
 5   Law Offices of L. Lin Wood
 6     2140 The Equitable Building
 7     100 Peachtree Street
 8     Atlanta, Georgia  30303
 9   .
10   On behalf of The United States:
11   MICHAEL KANE, Esq.
12   BRUCE LEVIN, Esq.
13   MITCH MORRISSEY, Esq.
14   MARK R. BECKNER
15   TOM WICKMAN
16   TOM TRUJILLO
17   JANE HARMER
18   .
19   Also present:
20     Ollie Gray
21     John San Agustin
22   .
23   .
24   .
25   .
0003
 1             VIDEOTAPED INTERVIEW OF JOHN RAMSEY
 2                       August 29, 2000
 3            MR. KANE:  Okay.  Mr. Ramsey,
 4   good morning.
 5            MR. BECKNER:  Just before we get
 6   in, I want to say we appreciate your
 7   willingness to sit down with us and answer
 8   questions.  We appreciate the opportunity.
 9            THE WITNESS:  Likewise.
10            MR. BECKNER:  I want to make
11   sure, do you know who everybody is here?
12            THE WITNESS:  Yes.  We met.  We
13   met everybody yesterday.
14            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  All right.
15            (OFF THE RECORD)
16     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  Okay, Mr. Ramsey,
17   we've spoken before for quite a period of
18   time.  When I first spoke with you earlier,
19   I explained to you that, if ever there were
20   going to be an intruder on trial, the
21   defense is going to be that you did it.  Do
22   you remember that?
23     A.     I remember that, but I am not
24   here to prove my innocence.  I am here to
25   find the killer of my daughter.
0004
 1            MR. WOOD:  Without getting into a
 2   back and forth, I don't want to, but I think
 3   you raised it and it was raised yesterday. 
 4   I just think you all can sell that somewhere
 5   else about the idea that if an intruder is
 6   put on trial you will need to have answers
 7   from the Ramseys because, if you find the
 8   person that killed their daughter, the
 9   intruder, and you put that person on trial,
10   before that trial date occurs, you will have
11   every opportunity to talk with John and Patsy
12   to make sure that they can assist you in the
13   prosecution of the criminal, including
14   assisting you in rebutting any defense.
15            MR. KANE:  I thought that is what
16   we are here for today.
17            MR. WOOD:  Well, you haven't
18   gotten the intruder yet.  All I am saying
19   is, if you will get the guy, we will always
20   be available to help you with that.
21            MR. KANE:  Okay.  
22     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  How active have
23   you been involved in the investigation in the
24   last two years since we last met?  How
25   actively have you taken part in it?
0005
 1     A.     Well, that's a relative term.  I
 2   don't know how to answer that question.  I
 3   am aware somewhat of what is going on. 
 4   Bryan Morgan shepherded the effort for a good
 5   while after the grand jury and specifically
 6   told me he didn't want to tell me a lot
 7   because we were talking to the media and I
 8   had a tendency to perhaps say things I
 9   shouldn't. 
10     Q.     What kinds of things were you
11   concerned of saying?
12     A.     He was concerned about keeping the
13   efforts of the investigation as confidential
14   as possible.
15     Q.     Why is that?
16     A.     I don't know.  You have to ask
17   him.
18     Q.     In your mind --
19     A.     In my mind, it compromises the
20   effort.
21     Q.     In your mind it compromises the
22   effort or in his mind?
23     A.     Yes, in my mind.
24     Q.     It compromises the effort to
25   disclose things?
0006
 1     A.     To find the killer, which is what
 2   we were trying to do.
 3     Q.     That wasn't my question, how does
 4   it compromise the effort to not disclose
 5   things you are uncovering?
 6            MR. WOOD:  Disclose them publicly?
 7            MR. KANE:  Yes, yes.
 8            THE WITNESS:  We've always felt
 9   that way.
10            MR. WOOD:  Don't you all feel
11   that way, with all due respect? 
12     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  But you said that
13   Bryan had to tell you that he wasn't going
14   to disclose information to you because you
15   would take it public?
16     A.     He thought that that risk was
17   there because we were in conversation with
18   the media.  We were in the process of
19   writing a book.
20     Q.     The first time that you had,
21   between June of 1998 and the time you wrote
22   your book, had you given any media
23   interviews?
24     A.     I think we gave one in Nashville. 
25   That's all I can remember, but I don't
0007
 1   recall the timing.
 2     Q.     So you got a limited briefing on
 3   what the progress of the investigation was?
 4     A.     Uh-huh (affirmative).
 5     Q.     What were the things that were
 6   disclosed you?
 7     A.     I think anything substantive has
 8   been turned over to you, first of all, or to
 9   the Boulder Police Department.
10     Q.     No, I understand that, but what
11   was disclosed to you?
12            MR. WOOD:  Wait.  Give him --
13            MR. KANE:  That wasn't my
14   question.
15            MR. WOOD:  Doesn't matter.  Let
16   him finish saying what he was going to say. 
17   He has the right to answer.  If you don't
18   think it's responsive, then just deal with
19   it, but I -- John, go ahead and finish. 
20   Don't interrupt.   
21            THE WITNESS:  I forgot your
22   question now.
23     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  The question was,
24   what was disclosed to you?
25            MR. WOOD:  And you started to
0008
 1   say, John --
 2            THE WITNESS:  That I, first of
 3   all, I believe that whatever has been
 4   disclosed to me I am highly confident has
 5   been given to the Boulder Police Department
 6   as information.  
 7            We have, I know, pursued a good
 8   number of leads.  I don't know that any of
 9   them are the killer.  I don't know that one
10   of them is not the killer.  They are
11   interesting leads, the ones I am aware of. 
12   They need to be pursued.  We are pursuing
13   them to the best of our ability as a private
14   citizen.
15            One of the reasons we are here
16   today is because we realize that there are
17   powers that the state has that we cannot, as
18   private citizens, exercise, and that's going
19   to be necessary to ultimately find the
20   killer.
21     Q.     (By Mr. Levin)  If I can
22   interrupt.  Mr. Ramsey, what I would like
23   you to do, I mean, as an individual, I am
24   sure, who has thought about this all day,
25   every day, is just lay out for us what you
0009
 1   see as the significant lead so that we can
 2   make sure that we have followed these things
 3   up. 
 4     A.     Well, the -- and this is the file
 5   I've kept of leads that come in on the
 6   internet.  And we have a tip line, we get
 7   lots of letters, most of which are not of
 8   any interest or value, but these are ones
 9   that I kept.  I sent these on to Ollie, and
10   I think probably he has sent them on to you. 
11   These aren't necessarily inclusive.  
12            This is just from a psychologist,
13   who had, I think, a good perspective on the
14   killer.  
15            This is the Dorothy Allison stuff
16   which I believe you guys are familiar with.
17            Chris Wolf is still very much of
18   interest to me.  I don't know that he is
19   involved.  I don't know he's not. But --
20     Q.     (By Mr. Levin)  Hang on.  I
21   suppose what I'm -- I don't mean to cut you
22   off, Mr. Ramsey, obviously.  But what I am
23   interested in, I mean, we had a list of
24   names that you provided early on, and I was
25   interested if there are recent people.  I
0010
 1   mean, obviously we've looked at Chris Wolf
 2   and we looked at Fleet and we've looked at
 3   Priscilla and we've looked at Merrick, and
 4   those people, and I'm looking for --
 5            MR. WOOD:  Have they been
 6   cleared, Bruce?  Have they been cleared?
 7            MR. LEVIN: I can't comment on the
 8   status of the investigation.
 9            MR. WOOD:  Has he been cleared
10   from your list.  Are we wasting our time? 
11   Tell us so we won't waste Ollie's resources.
12   They can go elsewhere.  
13            Well, let me go get the 50-page
14   document which the Ramseys gave to you all
15   and you ask him what is significant.
16            MR. LEVIN:  Let me get post-98.
17            MR. WOOD:  But you interrupted
18   him.  Post '98, you gave us 51 pages almost
19   50 pages.  Let's go through that because you
20   certainly thought that was significant. 
21   Let's get that.  Let me get that.
22            MR. LEVIN:  Maybe my question
23   wasn't clear and maybe this will save you
24   the trouble. 
25            MR. WOOD:  Okay.
0011
 1            MR. LEVIN:  What I'm interested
 2   in is --
 3            MR. WOOD:  You will not tell us
 4   if the other people are cleared?
 5            MR. LEVIN:  No.
 6            MR. WOOD:  Thank you for the
 7   cooperation.
 8            MR. LEVIN:  I am interested in
 9   what, I'm interested in what Mr. Ramsey felt
10   was significant, if there were people post
11   '98 that jumped out.
12            MR. WOOD:  That 50 page document
13   was felt to be significant. 
14            MR. LEVIN:  To a man that it's
15   at the heart of who murdered his child.
16            THE WITNESS:  Well, I can tell
17   you that I think you know there was this
18   whole issue of some strange activity in the
19   Cherry Knolls, and I've often thought, you
20   know, we lived there, it was a small town,
21   we were higher profile, you know, perhaps we
22   went to the wrong place.
23            I spent a little time this summer
24   talking to some of the people that I know
25   our investigators talked to.  Some of the
0012
 1   information that I heard secondhand wasn't as
 2   strong as I thought it was in terms of being
 3   interesting.  
 4            We had the incident of someone
 5   sleeping in JonBenet's bed while we were
 6   gone.  We had the incident of somebody
 7   running down the hill saying they were going
 8   to get even with me and harm my daughter. 
 9   I don't know if there is anything there or
10   not, but I think it's foolish not to look at
11   that.
12            MR. KANE:  Can I ask --
13            MR. WOOD:  Wait, let him finish
14   answering the question.
15            MR. KANE:  He did.
16            THE WITNESS:  I am not finished.
17            MR. WOOD:  I have a 50 page
18   document we're going to go through,
19   gentlemen.  You are not going to cut him off
20   and say he doesn't have information that he
21   thought was significant. 
22            MR. KANE:  I just want to ask
23   one follow-up --
24            MR. WOOD:  Follow up after his
25   answer.  We are going to talk about the
0013
 1   September of '97 incident.  We're going to
 2   talk about all of this.  You want him to
 3   give you this information.  And I hope you
 4   do want it.  That's why I would like him to
 5   have that 50 page document in front of him
 6   when he talks about this.  Would you like to
 7   have it, John?
 8            THE WITNESS:  I have not seen it,
 9   so I would.  Here's a lead on a guy named
10   Pete Flynn who was part of a motorcycle gang
11   in Casper, Wyoming called the Saints Bike and
12   Trail Club, SBTC, possible connections to
13   Linda Hawk, worked at the Tomahawk Lounge in
14   Casper, in the '70s.  It was where the
15   Saints hung out.  I don't know.  You know,
16   I have, I have stretched my imagination to
17   the limit trying to figure out what SBTC is.
18            This lady continues to claim that
19   Larry Petrie is the killer.  She goes on and
20   on.  I don't think that is terribly
21   significant, but what I look for in these
22   things is, is there something that they know
23   that really ties it together or is there
24   something they know that really isn't public,
25   which is kind of difficult because so much
0014
 1   has been public.
 2            This is a -- these Patricia
 3   letters are incredibly bizarre.  When I read
 4   those things, this wasn't just an internet
 5   quack, in my opinion.  This was somebody who
 6   was watching us, who knew a lot about us,
 7   who would talk about the killer being
 8   actually a pretty nice guy.
 9            You know, we tried desperately to
10   track this back.  He's a very clever fellow.
11   He used several servers in his Internet
12   transmissions.  We couldn't, couldn't track
13   it back.  But I still am very interested in
14   that.
15            I have an original letter that I
16   am convinced the same guy sent me that was
17   written in a different -- supposedly it is a
18   different author, but it's the same.  So I
19   mean, it could be the killer.  I don't know. 
20   But it's a lead.
21            Here is a, this is a family 
22   that -- oh, this is just some Dorothy
23   Allison information.  This is about a killer
24   of a six-year-old child.  
25            One of my theories is, frankly,
0015
 1   that the murder of a child is such a
 2   horrible thing and so subhuman that there are
 3   not many people around that do it.  Here is
 4   a fellow that murdered a six-year-old child,
 5   or the name of a fellow.  My contention is
 6   that --
 7            MR. KANE:  Dorothy Allison, can I
 8   ask, is that a psychic?
 9            THE WITNESS:  No, no, this was
10   from --
11            MR. WOOD:  He is talking about
12   someone else now.
13            MR. KANE:  No, but before you
14   said --
15            MR. WOOD:  You are going to let
16   him finish what he's saying.
17            MR. KANE:  Oh, come on.  Lin,
18   I'm just asking who is Dorothy Allison for
19   the record.
20            MR. WOOD:  Let him finish.  Make
21   a note and --
22            THE WITNESS:  Dorothy Allison was
23   on a television program.  I believe she is a
24   psychic.  I did not see it.  I've never
25   have seen her.  These are letters from
0016
 1   people who have sent information based on
 2   what they heard on the television program.
 3            MR. KANE:  I just wanted to --
 4            MR. WOOD:  It is going to be a
 5   better procedure to let my client finish. 
 6   You are going to let my client answer his
 7   question or you're going to  leave.  You're
 8   not here to interrupt.  Show some courtesy
 9   and I will show it to you.
10            THE WITNESS:  Dennis Kelly.  This
11   is actually very interesting.
12            MR. KANE:  If you want to play
13   that game, I will win.
14            MR. WOOD:  Well, did you 
15   answer -- hold on, John.  
16            What did you say, sir?
17            MR. KANE:  I said, if you want
18   to play that game, let's take a break.
19            MR. WOOD:  Let's take a break. 
20   I don't know what that means.  We'll
21   consider what that means.  I'm going to play
22   that game, you're going to win?  I don't
23   know.
24            MR. KANE:  You are playing games. 
25            MR. WOOD:  I am not playing a
0017
 1   game, Mr. Kane.
 2            MR. KANE:  He mentioned Dorothy
 3   Allison, and I said who is Dorothy Allison.
 4            MR. WOOD:  Mr. Kane, I am not
 5   going to waste my breath talking to you like
 6   I did yesterday.  I am going to take a
 7   break now, but when you make comments about
 8   me playing a game and you are going to win
 9   when I asked you not to interrupt my client,
10   number one, sir, that was rude.  I asked you
11   not to do it.  I told you if you were
12   going to be discourteous to my client, you
13   would have to leave.
14            MR. KANE:  I was not 
15   discourteous.
16            MR. WOOD:  If it is a game to
17   you, as you practice law, it is not a game
18   for me.  
19            MR. KANE:  Are we going to take
20   a break here?
21            MR. WOOD:  We will get through
22   this, Chief, no matter what he tries to do,
23   we will get through it.  I promise you.
24            MR. KANE:  This is a stall.
25            MR. WOOD:  And I will get that
0018
 1   50 page document too.
 2            (WHEREUPON, a brief recess was
 3   taken.)
 4            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  All right.
 5            THE WITNESS:  Well, I started to
 6   talk about Dennis Kelly, which interested me
 7   because this is a note from a guy in Boulder
 8   who lived near Kelly who apparently painted
 9   our basement in either '95 or 1996.  He's a
10   fairly dysfunctional fellow.  I don't know if
11   you know his name or not.
12     Q.     (By Chief Beckner)  When you say
13   dysfunctional, what do you mean?
14     A.     Well, I can give you copies of
15   these things, but he was wearing an ankle
16   monitor when he was painting our basement,
17   apparently.  I don't know how this was
18   known, but obviously he was supposed to be
19   on a restricted duty.
20            MR. TRUJILLO:  Mr. Ramsey, are
21   you speaking of Mr. Kelly as the person who
22   painted your basement?
23            THE WITNESS:  Yes, Dennis Kelly. 
24   Do you know that name or --
25            MR. TRUJILLO:  I would have to go
0019
 1   back and look.
 2            THE WITNESS:  But anyway, this is
 3   one of those that had a connection, in our
 4   house.
 5            MR. BECKNER:  And that is the
 6   type of thing that is particularly of
 7   interest to us are people who have had
 8   connections, because obviously there are a
 9   lot of people that are going to write on the
10   internet and send letters and things. 
11            THE WITNESS:  Right.  Yeah.  I
12   mentioned a wealthy friend I visited, da-dah,
13   da-dah, da-dah, and then Kelly said, yeah, I
14   know some rich people.  Who?  The Ramseys. 
15   He seemed to have some sort of grudge
16   against you which he wouldn't explain.  
17   But -- and this was March 2000.  So I can
18   give you a copy of that.
19            In terms of the stuff that I have
20   been keeping track of, that's probably the
21   most interesting.  
22            This is Randy Simons.  I don't
23   know if there is anything there.  
24            This is a woman who believes that
25   her brother might have done it.  And I 
0020
 1   think -- I can give you this too, but I
 2   think you guys know about it.
 3            MR. KANE:  Who is that?
 4            THE WITNESS:  Well, I don't know.
 5   She didn't give me a name.
 6     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  Her, the name of
 7   the brother?
 8     A.     She doesn't, but she has an
 9   e-mail address. Well, this actually came from
10   Jamison, who I am sure you guys are
11   painfully aware of.  But I think she had
12   been communicating with this woman, or this
13   person who is a woman.
14            We had another lady write us that
15   her ex-husband did it, but in talking to
16   her, we decided she was really a woman
17   scorned. 
18            MR. WOOD:  We had everybody back
19   from John Kennedy calling.
20            THE WITNESS:  Yeah, it got really
21   bizarre in the end.  That's the kind of
22   thing I've been looking for, and that's what
23   I've learned, yet one of those for every
24   hundred that really are not particularly
25   interesting.
0021
 1            Michael Helgoth, I know we gave
 2   you some boots, Hi-Tec boots, that from my
 3   perspective looked like a perfect match to
 4   the footprint.    
 5            We also know he has a stun gun
 6   that was an AirTaser.  We know he committed
 7   suicide the day after Alex Hunter's speech
 8   about we know who you are, we are going to
 9   get you.
10            There is the another fellow, I
11   don't know his name, but I know Ollie has
12   been working on it that had a shrine of
13   JonBenet prior to '96.
14            MR. TRUJILLO:  Mr. Ramsey, let me
15   jump back to Mr. Helgoth for a moment.  You
16   said he had boots that you have seen.  Have
17   you seen the boots?
18            THE WITNESS:  I haven't seen the
19   boots.  I saw a picture that Ollie had taken
20   earlier of the footprint compared to the
21   image of the bootprint.
22     Q.     (By Mr. Trujillo)  That is my
23   question, have you seen the actual crime
24   scene photograph of the boot print there?
25     A.     No, no.
0022
 1     Q.     What image have you seen?
 2            MR. WOOD:  That is a copy of it.
 3            THE WITNESS:  I don't know what
 4   image I have seen, but it was on the
 5   internet.
 6            MR. TRUJILLO:  Okay.  I don't
 7   know if this is the boot image of -- oh,
 8   here it is, yes.
 9            MR. WOOD:  This is a copy.
10            MR. TRUJILLO:  This is an image
11   off of the internet?
12            THE WITNESS:  And yes, I don't
13   know --
14            MS. HARMER:  And the internet,
15   the person who put it on the internet is
16   purporting it to be the actual footprint that
17   was found in the cellar?
18            THE WITNESS:  Not necessarily. 
19   His parents, Helgoth's parents finally turned
20   over his boots, which we turned over to you. 
21   I don't know Helgoth.  I don't know that
22   name.  Whether or not there is any
23   significance there, I don't know.
24            MS. HARMER:  I guess I am not
25   clear about where you got this image.
0023
 1            THE WITNESS:  The --
 2            MR. WOOD:  Ollie would be able to
 3   tell us that. 
 4            THE WITNESS:  Yeah, I don't know.
 5            MR. WOOD:  The image of the print
 6   in the wine cellar.
 7            MR. GRAY:  I did that comparison
 8   with glue.
 9            THE WITNESS:  But here is a guy
10   that ought to be looked at.  I don't know
11   anything else about it, but he certainly
12   meets some of the factors that we find
13   interesting.
14            I still believe the September '97
15   incident is significant.  I don't know what
16   you found on that, but that sent chills down
17   my spine when I read about that, heard about
18   that a month or two ago.
19            This person that has a shrine, I
20   think, had a cane, one of those candycanes
21   from my front yard in his home.  I don't
22   know how he could have come by that after
23   the fact.  It was secured December 25th.
24            Those are probably, in my mind,
25   the most interesting, substantial leads that
0024
 1   I had seen.
 2     Q.     (By Mr. Levin)  Mr. Ramsey, you
 3   mention --
 4            MR. WOOD:  Before we go there,
 5   Bruce, let me say to you, I turned over to
 6   Ollie two expandables of stuff that I have
 7   gotten for him to look at, including, you
 8   may know this, Chief, but I got some really
 9   long and detailed analysis of Fleet White's
10   letters compared to the ransom notes from a
11   lawyer in New York.  Are you familiar with
12   it?  You may not have gotten it yet.
13            MR. BECKNER:  I don't believe so.
14            MR. WOOD:  He will go through it
15   and get it all to you.  I am trying to
16   keep up with it to go to Ollie.  It is two
17   expandables of different tips on leads.
18            MR. BECKNER:  What type of
19   analysis is it?
20            MR. WOOD:  It's a linguistic
21   analysis of the public letters that Fleet
22   White and Priscilla White have written about
23   the case, and they have taken that and done
24   an analysis of the ransom note.  So I am
25   not making any suggestions except to describe
0025
 1   it.
 2     Q.     (By Ms. Harmer)  Mr. Ramsey, this
 3   Dennis Kelly that you brought up, the
 4   painter, have your investigators contacted him
 5   or done any follow-up that you are aware of?
 6     A.     I don't know of.
 7            MR. GRAY:  I beg your pardon?
 8            MR. WOOD:  Dennis Kelly, any
 9   follow-up on Kelly yet?
10            MR. GRAY:  I don't know a Kelly. 
11            MR. WOOD:  The painter.
12            MR. GRAY:  Uh-uh (negative).
13            MR. WOOD:  Give that to Ollie.
14            MR. GRAY:  There are a couple of
15   others we followed up on, but not him.
16            MR. LEVIN:  Mr. Ramsey, you
17   mentioned Dorothy Allison provided you with a
18   name?  I missed it.
19            THE WITNESS:  A woman who had
20   seen her on television provided us with a
21   name of a -- I said I can give you what
22   she sent, but I don't --
23     Q.     (By Mr. Levin)  Was that on the
24   list that you gave us, the name?
25     A.     No, no.
0026
 1     Q.     If I can change gears for just a
 2   second, one of the things that you found
 3   significant, and, obviously since you found
 4   it significant, it was of great interest to
 5   us, was the baseball bat, the second baseball
 6   bat, aluminum bat.
 7            And we have, through confidential
 8   grand jury investigations, found that that
 9   bat, that second bat was Burke's.  Was there
10   anything else that you thought about,
11   assuming that is true?
12     A.     Well, I never have seen the bat,
13   so -- and I think the best person to say
14   whether it was Burke's or not is to ask
15   Burke.
16     Q.     Okay.
17     A.     I don't know.
18     Q.     That's it from your 
19   perspective --
20     A.     No, there was nothing else I know
21   about the bat.
22     Q.     Okay.  Thank you.  We received
23   from your lawyers in January of '97 two
24   black shirts which we received really 
25   without --
0027
 1            MR. BECKNER:  January of '98.
 2            MR. LEVIN:  January of '98.  I
 3   am sorry.
 4     Q.     (By Mr. Levin)  January of 1998. 
 5   It was in response to Boulder Police
 6   Department's request for the shirt that you
 7   are wearing in the photographs from Christmas
 8   at the White's house.  And they were given
 9   to us without explanation of how they got
10   into their possession.  I thought you could
11   explain that for us.
12     A.     Well, I assume they were the
13   shirts that, when we were asked to provide
14   the clothing we had on that night before, we
15   couldn't remember.  We asked for a picture
16   that was taken that night so we could
17   remember.  As far as I know, those are the
18   only shirts that we sent. 
19     Q.     And that was in response to our
20   request --
21     A.     Uh-huh (affirmative).
22     Q.     -- for the clothing that you were
23   wearing?
24     A.     I suspect it was, yes.
25     Q.     What I would like you, if you
0028
 1   recall, did you personally retrieve it, send
 2   it off to your lawyers, and, if so, where
 3   did you retrieve it from?
 4     A.     Gosh, I don't know.  It would be
 5   in December of '98, we were living in
 6   Atlanta.
 7            MR. TRUJILLO:  Actually December
 8   of '97.
 9            MR. WOOD:  I think the request
10   for the clothing was made in December of
11   '97, a year after the murder.
12            THE WITNESS:  Oh, yes, December
13   of '97, yeah, yeah.
14            MR. WOOD:  And you turned it over
15   in January of '98.
16            MR. LEVIN:  I believe that is
17   correct, sir.
18            THE WITNESS:  We still lived in
19   Atlanta.  So it was either in a box or in
20   my closet, I suppose.
21     Q.     (By Mr. Levin)  Do you recall,
22   when, on September the 28th, when your
23   sister-in-law Pam went over to retrieve some
24   items for the family, was that among the
25   items that she took out of the house?
0029
 1     A.     December?
 2     Q.     28th, 1996.  That Saturday 
 3   before -- that Saturday after the murder.
 4     A.     I don't know.  
 5     Q.     So just so I am clear, your best
 6   recollection is that that was an item that
 7   was in the house that was packed up by the
 8   movers that was sent off?
 9     A.     Uh-huh (affirmative).
10     Q.     You provided us with two shirts. 
11   One of them had a collar, it's a wool shirt
12   made in Israel.  The other one did not have
13   a collar.  Do you have a belief as to which
14   one was the actual shirt that you were
15   wearing on Christmas '96?
16     A.     I don't remember, I guess.  And
17   if I -- well, I think the issue, if I
18   recall was I couldn't remember which one, so
19   I think we sent you both.  But I mean, I'd
20   have to look at pictures, I guess, to
21   compare.  I don't remember that far back.
22     Q.     Mr. Ramsey, I take it, and
23   correct me if I am wrong, please, that the
24   fact that you sent two shirts as opposed to
25   one indicated you were not certain which of
0030
 1   the two you were wearing?
 2     A.     Well, I think that's what we did,
 3   but I don't, I mean, I don't remember
 4   exactly the logic.  I know that we were
 5   asked about shoes, and the picture didn't
 6   even show shoes, so I couldn't remember what
 7   shoes we had on.  So was it to send all my
 8   shoes or one hundred percent sure.
 9     Q.     Those items of evidence, did you
10   continue, after the clothing was moved down
11   to Atlanta, after you moved to Atlanta, did
12   you continue to wear them?  Were they
13   laundered?  Were they -- one of them was
14   wool.  I assume that would be dry cleaned. 
15   Do you have any recollection in that regard?
16     A.     No, I don't.
17     Q.     We have been provided, and again,
18   one of the sources of this information is
19   confidential grand jury material I can tell
20   you in the question, but we have been
21   provided information from two sources that
22   your son Burke, prior to the murder of your
23   daughter, owned and wore Hi-Tec boots that
24   had a compass on them, which makes them
25   distinctive.  
0031
 1            Do you recall -- if you don't
 2   recall that they actually were Hi-Tec, do you
 3   remember Burke having boots that had a
 4   compass on the laces?
 5     A.     Vaguely.  I don't know if they
 6   were boots or tennis shoes.  My memory is
 7   they were tennis shoes, but that is very
 8   vague.  He had boots that had lights on them
 9   and all sorts of different things.
10     Q.     But you do have some recollection
11   that he had some type of footwear that had
12   compasses attached to them?
13     A.     I don't, I don't specifically
14   remember them, but my impression is that he
15   did, in my mind, yeah.  But my impression
16   was that they were tennis shoes.
17     Q.     Sneakers?
18     A.     Sneakers.  Yeah.  Ask Burke if he
19   remembers it. 
20            I said, ask Burke, perhaps he --
21   well, we could certainly ask Burke.
22     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) Mr. Ramsey, page
23   266 and 267 of your book, you quote a letter
24   you sent to Alex Hunter.
25     A.     Okay.
0032
 1     Q.     The last full paragraph of that,
 2   finally I am willing, it's on 267, I am
 3   willing and able to put up a substantial
 4   reward, $1 million, through the help of
 5   friends if this would help drive the
 6   investigation.
 7            Now, did you ever put up $1
 8   million reward?
 9     A.     No.  I was advised that it
10   wouldn't make any difference.
11     Q.     Who was it that advised you of
12   that?
13     A.     My attorneys.  That $100,000 was
14   a significant amount of money.  And I didn't
15   have a million dollars at that point.  I
16   would have had to gone to friends for help. 
17   And if it wasn't significant, I wasn't going
18   to approach my friends for that kind of
19   help.
20     Q.     Did you talk to anybody else
21   about whether the amount of money offered
22   would have any bearing?
23     A.     Well, I never got a response from
24   Alex on that, but I don't remember that I
25   did, no.
0033
 1     Q.     Was there something about, in your
 2   attorney's experience, that they cited --
 3            MR. WOOD:  I don't want to go
 4   into anything further on that, about
 5   attorneys.  The things they cited to him,
 6   would go into the privilege.
 7            MR. KANE:  Fine.  No problem.
 8     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  What did you
 9   think?  What did your instinct tell you
10   about a million versus 100,000?
11     A.     Well, in the beginning, I thought
12   that that would drive information.  At the
13   beginning we couldn't get the police to even
14   acknowledge or participate in announcing a
15   reward.  It was very frustrating.
16            And so we, you know --
17     Q.     Do you have a reward outstanding
18   right now?
19     A.     Yes.  As far as I am concerned,
20   we do.
21     Q.     I am sorry?
22     A.     As far as I'm concerned, we do,
23   yeah.
24     Q.     Is it publicized anywhere?
25     A.     It is publicized on our internet
0034
 1   site, I believe.
 2     Q.     Who maintains that?
 3     A.     Ollie and I guess -- you can do
 4   that yourself and have an internet service.
 5     Q.     You understand there is a reward
 6   that is listed on your internet site?
 7     A.     (Witness nodded head
 8   affirmatively).
 9     Q.     Is that that ramseyfamily.com?
10     A.     It was originally.  We changed
11   the number.  I guess that is still how you
12   access it.  I think you access it both ways,
13   don't you?  Ramseyfamily.com, and we also set
14   up a JonBenetinfo@AOL.com.
15     Q.     JonBenetinfo --
16     A.     -- @AOL.com.  That's not a
17   website.
18     Q.     That is an e-mail?
19     A.     Right.
20     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, I know
21   that the -- it is my belief, I should say,
22   that the fact that certain people have
23   represented to you that there are stun gun
24   injuries to your daughter is a significant
25   fact.
0035
 1     A.     Uh-huh (affirmative).
 2     Q.     And I am curious, if you don't
 3   mind, could you just tell us who has
 4   provided you information in that regard that
 5   has caused you to hold the belief that she
 6   has suffered a stun gun injury?
 7            MR. WOOD:  That would be
 8   information provided to him subsequent to
 9   June of 1998?
10            MR. LEVIN:  Yes.
11            MR. WOOD:  Do you understand the
12   question, John?  I know what you said in
13   June of 1998, but he is talking about since
14   the time of your last interviews.  If you've
15   got anything else.
16            Let me ask him a question.
17            (Mr. Ramsey and his counsel
18   confer.)
19            THE WITNESS:  We had, under 
20   the -- kind of the direction of Pat Burke a
21   group of experts assembled to look at the
22   medical, from the scientific and medical
23   aspects of this, and that was one of the
24   things, I believe, that they looked at.
25     Q.     (By Mr. Levin)  That would be 
0036
 1   Dr. Sperry?
 2     A.     Well, that would be one of the
 3   names.  There were two to three.  I don't
 4   remember the other names because I never met
 5   them, but these are the people we offered to
 6   have meet with you in January.
 7     Q.     Right, right.  Were you provided
 8   information from those folks that told you
 9   that one of the things that they examined
10   were photographs of the reported stun gun
11   injuries, ask Mr. Sperry and his colleagues
12   if he had --
13     A.     I don't, I don't remember what
14   they said, I guess.  I never talked to him
15   directly.  You know --
16            MR. WOOD:   Bruce, as indicated
17   by your question, you all have now an
18   interest in the information from those
19   individuals and would like to reconsider the
20   request to meet with them which you earlier
21   rejected, again, I think I am pretty sure
22   that I can speak with Pat Burke and that
23   that can be done.  As indicated by your
24   question, you are obviously interested in
25   what those people have to say, and we will
0037
 1   give them to you.
 2            THE WITNESS:  My position on stun
 3   guns is that the people that have told me
 4   that this was likely the case seemed pretty
 5   qualified.
 6            MR. LEVIN:  But that, I am sorry,
 7   Michael.
 8     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) But that, just a
 9   follow up so I am clear, that information is
10   not from this group that was put together
11   after '98.  That is some other individuals
12   that precede your June '98 interviews?
13     A.     Well, the first time the stun gun
14   came up was in a meeting with Lou Schmidt
15   and Tom was there.  I don't remember.
16            MR. WICKMAN:  Pete Hoster?
17            MR. LEVIN:  Ainesworth?
18            THE WITNESS:  And he asked me to
19   keep it very confidential but did we have,
20   did we know anybody that owned a stun gun. 
21   That is the first I heard about it.  But
22   that was probably in '97.
23            MR. WICKMAN:  Yeah.
24     Q.     (By Mr. Levin)  And since your
25   interviews in '98, there has been a passage
0038
 1   of a significant period of time, have you
 2   come up with names of people you know that
 3   have, that you were associated with, which
 4   you know owned stun guns that were unfamiliar
 5   with --
 6     A.     Not the -- I mean, my answer to
 7   that back then was I don't know of anybody
 8   that I know that owns a stun gun, and I
 9   still don't.  I mean, we have come up with
10   guys like Helgoth who we know owned the
11   brand that was a suspect, but --
12            MR. KANE:  Let me follow up on
13   that.
14     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) have you talked to
15   Lou Schmidt about the stun gun after he
16   resigned from the case?
17            MR. WOOD:  After he resigned from
18   the case would have been?
19            MR. KANE:  Would have been
20   September of 1998.
21            MR. LEVIN: '99? 
22            MR. WOOD:  '98.
23            MR. KANE: '98.
24            MR. LEVIN: '98.
25            THE WITNESS:  Only, I think, that
0039
 1   he still believes it's very significant.
 2     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  Now, you said that
 3   you hadn't talked to any of the experts that
 4   had looked at it.  What information did you
 5   get, if any, from these people?
 6     A.     I think the most significant piece
 7   of information, that they felt that the blow
 8   to the head was after she had died or near
 9   death.
10     Q.     I am now talking about the stun
11   gun.
12     A.     Oh, about the stun gun?
13     Q.     Yes.
14     A.     I don't remember that they told
15   me anything about the stun gun that I didn't
16   already know, I mean, that I was aware of.
17     Q.     What are you aware of, I guess,
18   is the question, about the stun gun?
19     A.     Well, I was aware that it was
20   highly likely that one was used, which is a
21   very distressing fact.  I learned, and I
22   think I heard this in the media, it might
23   have been Carol McCane, I don't remember,
24   said something about there were burn marks on
25   the tape.  I don't know if that is true or
0040
 1   not.
 2     Q.     But you don't know of any experts
 3   that say that?
 4            THE WITNESS:  No, I don't.
 5            MR. WOOD:  Because of what's
 6   obviously of interest on your all's part, I
 7   take it you would all be receptive with
 8   meeting with them now?  Are you interested
 9   in hearing what they want to say?  I assume
10   you would want us to arrange that, Bruce?
11            MR. LEVIN:  I think that is
12   something we can talk about.  There are
13   issues are surrounding those people that
14   isn't germane to our talking to Mr. Ramsey
15   at this time that maybe you and I can talk
16   about in the future.
17     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) You started to say
18   about the most significant thing was the blow
19   to the head preceded the strangulation.  Was
20   that, have you talked to any particular
21   expert about that?
22     A.     I haven't talked directly to any
23   particular expert about that.  That was the
24   analysis I got back through Pat Burke, I
25   believe.
0041
 1     A.     And do you know who --
 2            MR. WOOD:  Just so it is clear,
 3   I think you said preceded strangulation.  I
 4   think you misspoke.
 5            MR. KANE:  If the blow, no I
 6   think that's what you said.  You said, I am
 7   sorry.
 8            MR. WOOD:  Hold on.  Let's make
 9   sure.  He said precisely, the most
10   significant piece of information was that
11   they felt was the blow to the death was
12   after the death, and your question, I think
13   inadvertently you said preceded the
14   strangulation, which is not what he said.
15            MR. KANE:  You are right.  That's
16   not what I meant.  Okay.
17     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) But you got this
18   information through Pat Burke.  Have you ever
19   sought to talk to the people that he got the
20   information from?
21     A.     No, because I wanted to stay
22   independent of them.  The objective was, when
23   we presented these people up in January, was
24   to present highly qualified experts that
25   would help provide information to find the
0042
 1   killer. 
 2     Q.     But there are people in addition
 3   to Kris Sperry?
 4     A.     Yes.  I don't remember their
 5   names, but it seems to me there were
 6   several.
 7     Q.     But you could get access to who
 8   they were and provide us with those?
 9     A.     As far as I know, yes.
10     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, I know
11   that you were asked questions about a black
12   metal flashlight that was found in the house. 
13   We have developed, since '98, some
14   information about that flashlight I would
15   like to ask you just a little bit about.
16            Is that the flashlight that you
17   habitually used, say for example, if your
18   power went out and you had candles lit in
19   your house?  Do you know?
20     A.     Not necessarily.  And I don't
21   know that that was my flashlight.  The
22   picture I saw, and I think I commented at
23   the time, was that that one was very dirty. 
24   My flashlight, while it looked to be the
25   same size, mine was clean.  And my son gave
0043
 1   it to me for a present.  So that was the
 2   issue that I saw.  It kind of looks like
 3   mine, but it's certainly filthy.
 4     Q.     May not be?
 5     A.     Yeah. 
 6     Q.     Let's talk about, I want to ask
 7   this so it is clear for you.  The flashlight
 8   your son gave you, whether the light in the
 9   picture is that or not, but that flashlight,
10   the one you received as a gift from your
11   son, was that the light that, if you had
12   power failures, routinely, that is the first
13   thing you would grab?
14     A.     No, not necessarily.
15     Q.     Not necessarily?
16     A.     Because we kept it -- it was a
17   big flashlight.  We kept it, I believe,
18   normally in the drawer down that little sink
19   area in the back hall.  I don't even
20   remember if I had a flashlight by my bedside
21   or not.
22     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) The documentary that
23   was done by Michael Tracy in 1998 sometime,
24   did you have any say in any aspect of that
25   documentary?
0044
 1     A.     No.
 2     Q.     I think previously you said the
 3   one thing you did was you insisted that it
 4   wouldn't be shown before --
 5     A.     Well, there was an issue about,
 6   if it was, if the grand jury was in session
 7   or convened or something that we had the
 8   right to tell them not to put it on.  That
 9   was the only thing, I believe, that we --
10     Q.     Did you have any discussions with
11   anybody about when it was aired just a
12   couple of weeks before the grand jury
13   started?
14     A.     Did I have discussions?  No, not
15   that I remember.
16     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, one of
17   the things that you were asked about during
18   your interview in 1998 I would like to
19   follow up on is some new information, are
20   some questions about a Santa Bear that was
21   found on your daughter's bed.  Do you
22   remember that?
23     A.     Uh-huh (affirmative).
24     Q.     Do you remember the bear?
25     A.     (Witness nodded head
0045
 1   affirmatively).
 2     Q.     At the time you were interviewed,
 3   you stated to the effect that you did not
 4   recognize it?
 5     A.     Correct.
 6     Q.     And I am wondering, we have
 7   identified the source, we know how it got to
 8   JonBenet through a pageant on December 14.
 9            MR. WOOD:  Well, you say that,
10   but we're not -- we haven't seen the
11   photographs or video.
12            MR. LEVIN:  I understand that. 
13     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) It is our belief.
14            Are you comfortable with that
15   phrasing?
16            MR. WOOD:  I would be more
17   comfortable if you are going to question him
18   about something that you give him the right
19   to look at it yourself, but, you know, since
20   you, for whatever reason, choose not to do
21   so, I accept you state that is your belief.
22     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) It is my belief,
23   Mr. Ramsey, that she received that as a
24   prize in a pageant on December 14, 1996. 
25   And I am wondering if, do you recall being,
0046
 1   first of all, were you at her last pageant
 2   in December?  Do you remember?
 3     A.     I got there late.  I usually
 4   would try to go for the talent portion.  And
 5   they were running early.  I was late.  I
 6   got there after it was over.  So I was
 7   there, but not for very long.
 8     Q.     And the follow-up question to that
 9   would be, if my belief is correct that you
10   received that bear at that pageant, does that
11   maybe jog your memory as to the origin of
12   it?
13     A.     No.
14            MR. WOOD:  I don't think you
15   meant to say that he received it.
16            THE WITNESS:  We have no idea
17   whether that was significant or not, that
18   bear.  I mean, you know, it was, when I was
19   shown those photos, we were looking for
20   anything that looked out of the ordinary.
21            I mean, we had fully expected
22   that, if someone had given it to her, that
23   they would come forward and say, oh, yes, I
24   gave that to JonBenet.  That explains that. 
25     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) And you understand
0047
 1   of course, that anything you found
 2   significant or out of the ordinary became
 3   significant to us, obviously?
 4     A.     That's right.  Yeah.
 5            MR. WOOD:  You did misspeak, just
 6   for the record.  You meant to say JonBenet
 7   received it, not that John received it.
 8            MR. LEVIN:  That's correct.  I
 9   don't think John won a Little Miss Christmas
10   pageant.
11            THE WITNESS:  I don't remember
12   that.
13            MR. WOOD:  No, and it's
14   unfortunate what you asked him in the
15   question says that he did.
16            MR. LEVIN:  Michael?
17     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  Mr. Ramsey, at the
18   present time, how much money is in the
19   JonBenet Ramsey Foundation?
20     A.     I believe that is public record,
21   but I think there is about $7,000 in there. 
22     Q.     What is the highest balance that
23   you know of that it has been?
24     A.     I don't know.
25     Q.     Have you done any fundraisers to
0048
 1   fund it?
 2     A.     No.  It wasn't our intention to
 3   raise public money.  I set up a foundation
 4   for my other daughter, which still exists, by
 5   the way.  We were desperate to honor our
 6   daughter in some way, and that was our
 7   attempt to do it, and why we have been
 8   criticized for that, I don't know.
 9     Q.     You put out a press release that
10   gave an address for contributions to be made
11   to the foundation.
12     A.     I don't remember ever asking for
13   contributions.
14            MR. WOOD:  Do you have a copy of
15   the press release?
16            MR. KANE:  Yes.  As a matter of
17   fact, I do.
18            MR. WOOD:  Why don't you let him
19   see it.
20            THE WITNESS:  I would like to see
21   it.
22            MR. KANE:  I have what the Denver
23   Post has published as coming from your press
24   release.
25            MR. LEVIN:  While he gets booted
0049
 1   up on that just so that we don't waste time,
 2   how about if I ask him questions on another
 3   matter?  Does that work for you procedurally?
 4            MR. WOOD:  Sure.
 5            THE WITNESS:  Can I respond to
 6   that though?
 7            MR. WOOD:  Go ahead, John.
 8            THE WITNESS:  I am offended, and
 9   I have been offended.  I have been offended
10   that you investigated that foundation during
11   the grand jury.  I have a mind to disband
12   it and treat it just as a private -- we
13   want to honor our daughter, and we have
14   received nothing but grief from you folks,
15   from the media over that attempt, and I am
16   baffled by that.
17     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  I'll get it, but
18   I want to follow up on that, you made an
19   application for it to be a 503(C) charitable
20   foundation, haven't you?
21     A.     Yes.
22            MR. WOOD:  I think it actually
23   has been so designated.
24            MR. KANE:  Has it been?  That
25   was what I was going to ask you.
0050
 1            THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 2            MR. WOOD:  There was a mistake in
 3   the book jacket cover that indicated an
 4   application had been made.  An application
 5   for tax exempt status has been submitted, and
 6   I remember someone called it to the attention
 7   of the publisher that, in fact, it had been
 8   granted.  I don't sit here and represent
 9   that I have seen it, but I do know that
10   information.
11     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) Has any, to your
12   knowledge, any of the money that ever has
13   been in that foundation ever been given to
14   any charitable --
15     A.     Yeah.
16     Q.     -- or social --
17     A.     Not to the level we would have
18   hoped. I mean, our original plan was that we
19   were going to sue the hell out of the
20   tabloids and donate it all to the foundation
21   and do some very significant things.  That
22   has been a tough process.
23            So we have not been able to do
24   with it what we hoped, but I hope some day
25   we can.
0051
 1     Q.     You did get money from the
 2   public, though, that came in?
 3     A.     Very, very little.  I got -- the
 4   most significant donations I got were from
 5   two friends.  One was the president of
 6   Lockheed-Martin, sent $1,000, and my boss
 7   sent $1,000.  We probably received a few
 8   very small checks.
 9     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) While Mr. Kane is
10   looking for that on his computer, Mr. Ramsey,
11   I am interested, and this is concerning
12   events, obviously, that precede 1998, but it
13   is based on information developed after the
14   grand jury was convened.  I am interested,
15   if you would, please tell us what types, if
16   any, work gloves you own, whether you kept
17   them in the house, on the plane, in the car,
18   it doesn't matter, but just identify them by
19   their location.
20     A.     I don't remember that I owned any
21   work gloves.  I don't normally wear work
22   gloves.
23     Q.     So just to clarify, you are
24   saying that your recollection is that you did
25   not or you are just unsure because of the
0052
 1   passage of time?
 2     A.     I don't remember.  I mean, I
 3   don't normally wear work gloves.  I've had
 4   work gloves from time to time, but I 
 5   don't -- I can't specifically remember that I
 6   had any then or if I did what they were
 7   like.
 8            I had a pair here that were gray,
 9   and I bought those at Home Depot, and God
10   knows where they are now.  So they kind of
11   come and go. 
12     Q.     So it wasn't your routine habit
13   or practice to keep a pair of work gloves in
14   your cars if you needed to change a tire 
15   or --
16     A.     (Witness shook head negatively).
17     Q.     -- or on your plane if you needed
18   to do something where you would kind of get
19   dirtied up?
20     A.     No.  I am not qualified to work
21   on my airplane, my former airplane.
22            MR. WOOD:  Do you have the PR
23   statement, Mr. Kane?
24            MR. KANE:  No.  It's still
25   booting up.
0053
 1            MR. WOOD:  Okay.
 2     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, during
 3   the evening of December 25th, was there a
 4   time when either, after JonBenet got dressed
 5   to leave for the White's house or while she
 6   was at the White's house or after you came
 7   home from the White's house, she had any
 8   problems going to the bathroom or problems
 9   with her clothes that you may have helped
10   her with?
11     A.     I don't remember.  I really do
12   not.
13     Q.     If I may follow --
14     A.     It is possible.  I don't know.
15     Q.     If I can follow it up just to
16   clarify, when you say you don't remember,
17   does that mean, as you sit here today, your
18   best recollection is no or you don't know
19   yes or no?
20     A.     I don't remember.  It was three
21   and a half years ago.
22     Q.     I understand that.  I was just
23   trying to clarify your answer.
24     A.     I don't know.  I just don't
25   remember.
0054
 1     Q.     One way or the other?
 2     A.     One way or the other.
 3            MR. LEVIN:  Mike, do you have
 4   other questions while your computer is
 5   humming?
 6            MR. KANE:  No.
 7     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) I've got some
 8   questions, Mr. Ramsey, that deal with fiber
 9   evidence, and this is probably going to be
10   questions that your lawyer is going to advise
11   you not to answer, but I would like to pose
12   them to you.
13            MR. WOOD:  Is this what we
14   discussed yesterday with Patsy?
15            MR. LEVIN:  Different fibers
16   associated directly with -- 
17            MR. WOOD:  I think the position
18   is, to save some time, if you want to
19   question Mr. Ramsey about test results, that
20   it is absolutely fair that we be allowed to
21   see the result ourselves before we answer
22   questions so that we are not dealing with
23   speculation and hypotheticals that are not
24   supported by the facts as you might represent
25   them.
0055
 1            We couldn't get yesterday what I
 2   discerned to be a consistent response from
 3   any of you all about the test results that
 4   you discussed on the red fiber.  That just
 5   tells me that, to try to go into this area
 6   without being privy to the actual result, is
 7   not something I am comfortable with in terms
 8   of fundamental fairness.  If you are willing
 9   to disclose to us what you claim the result
10   to be, it makes absolutely no sense to me
11   that you would not share the actual result
12   with us.  I do not see how that can in any
13   justified way impede your investigation or
14   prevent you from going forward with your
15   investigation.
16            So we are not comfortable with
17   your characterization of any test results
18   forensically.  We will reconsider at the
19   appropriate time if we get there whether we
20   will answer those questions if you will
21   provide us with the actual result itself. 
22   So that's our position yesterday.  That's our
23   position today.  That will be our position
24   tomorrow.
25            But if you will give us the
0056
 1   results, we will look at them and we will
 2   consider whether or not we can answer
 3   questions based on those results.
 4            Fair enough?
 5            MR. LEVIN:  I understand.  And,
 6   of course, and I believe you feel I am
 7   entitled to at least pose the questions,
 8   understanding your position, so they are part
 9   of the record so this is an accurate --
10            MR. WOOD:  Well, you can pose
11   them if you want to make a record, and I
12   think I understand pretty clearly why you
13   want to make that record based on what you
14   said yesterday.
15            I said yesterday I thought it was
16   an injustice for you to make those kinds of
17   representations through your questions or
18   statements.
19            If you are going to make
20   statements that contain some form of innuendo
21   that an article of clothing might possibly be
22   connected to some portion of the crime scene
23   or this man's daughter's body, I think you
24   have an obligation, not only to him but to
25   whoever reads that report and this
0057
 1   transcript, to be candid and give full
 2   disclosure, show the people what the results
 3   are, show the people what you also had in
 4   terms of fiber evidence.  
 5            We are told there are hundreds of
 6   fibers, for example, on the duct tape.  And
 7   I think you have a fundamental right,
 8   fundamental fairness requires that you
 9   disclose that information and not single out
10   some hypothetical innuendo that unfairly casts
11   perhaps in someone's mind that reads this
12   some finger of blame at John or Patsy
13   Ramsey.  I think it is totally inappropriate
14   for you to do so, but if you want to go
15   ahead and make a record for whatever reason,
16   I certainly am not here to stop you.  You
17   have the right.
18            MR. LEVIN:  Thank you, Mr. Wood. 
19   I appreciate the opportunity.
20            MR. WOOD:  Thank you.
21     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is
22   our belief based on forensic evidence that
23   there are hairs that are associated, that the
24   source is the collared black shirt that you
25   sent us that are found in your daughter's
0058
 1   underpants, and I wondered if you --
 2     A.     Bullshit.  I don't believe that. 
 3   I don't buy it.  If you are trying to
 4   disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
 5     Q.     Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
 6   disgrace --
 7     A.     Well, I don't believe it.  I
 8   think you are.  That's disgusting.
 9            MR. WOOD:  I think you --
10            MR. LEVIN:  I am not.
11            MR. WOOD:  Yes, you are.  
12            MR. LEVIN:  And the follow-up
13   question would be --
14            MR. WOOD:  Posing the question in
15   light of what I said to you yesterday is
16   nothing more than an attempt to make a
17   record that unfairly, unjustly, and in a
18   disgusting fashion points what you might
19   consider to be some finger of blame at this
20   man regarding his daughter, and you ought to
21   be ashamed of yourself for doing it, Bruce. 
22            You knew we weren't going to
23   answer the question.  Why don't you just
24   give us the report, and we'll put it out
25   there for someone to look at and tell us
0059
 1   what it says and see how fair and accurate
 2   you have been.
 3            I know why you said what you said
 4   yesterday about Patsy and the fibers and John
 5   and the fibers.  And you know why you did
 6   it, Bruce.  Because you want this somehow to
 7   get out and then people will read that and
 8   be prejudiced even further against this
 9   family.
10            I just don't know why you want to
11   do it, but I can't stop you.
12            MR. LEVIN:  Mr. Wood, if you
13   would like to, I would challenge you to find
14   any article anywhere that I have been quoted
15   as giving an opinion or any statement to the
16   press concerning this case.
17            MR. WOOD:  You don't have to be
18   quoted.  You don't have to be quoted.
19            MR. LEVIN:  Or any piece of
20   evidence that I have released.
21            MR. WOOD:  You don't have to be
22   quoted.  You do not have to be quoted.
23            MR. LEVIN:  This is a murder
24   investigation, and I am trying to get an
25   explanation, which can be an innocent
0060
 1   explanation.
 2            MR. WOOD:  It could be, but you
 3   pose your question as if it's not not. 
 4   That's what's unfair.  Why don't you let us
 5   see the report so we can know exactly what's
 6   going on, exactly what other fibers were
 7   found in that area so that you don't
 8   unfairly cast an aspersion through innuendo
 9   or suggestion toward this man and his
10   daughter.  
11            It seems to me that you should
12   look over and go look, Mr. Wood, we want
13   your client's help, we will give you the
14   test results if it will help get this
15   answered, if it is so important, we'll tell
16   you whether there was another fiber or fibers
17   found that we doen't know where they came
18   from and maybe he can help you with that
19   information, but that is not what you are
20   doing.  You are focusing on what you believe
21   is one specific area.  And you are doing it
22   in a way that I think is just unfair.
23            Let me just answer your question
24   about you being quoted.  Look, John and
25   Patsy Ramsey sat around for three years and
0061
 1   did not go public with this case, even
 2   though your people were talking to tabloids
 3   and writing books and appearing on
 4   television.  Linda Arndt, Steve Thomas, Alex
 5   Hunter.  
 6            You want to go through the litany
 7   of how your people have publicly prosecuted
 8   and persecuted this family, and now they
 9   decided enough is enough and they tried to
10   go out with me, yes, sir, and them and try
11   to refute some of the absolute lies that
12   have been told about them.  Do you have a
13   problem with that?
14            MR. LEVIN:  Mr. Wood.
15            MR. WOOD:  Because your people
16   have been saying it.  I am not calling your 
17   name.  I don't know who it is linked to. 
18   I don't know who gave the ransom note to
19   Vanity Fair.  I'm not suggesting it is you. 
20   But don't sit here and tell me that because
21   Bruce Levin hasn't been quoted that this
22   investigation from the Boulder Police
23   Department and the district attorney's office
24   is a lily white when it comes to talking
25   about this case in the media because that is
0062
 1   false, and you know it.
 2            MR. LEVIN:  Now, Mr. Wood, if I
 3   can just respond very briefly, and I want
 4   Mr. Ramsey to listen to this because it's
 5   important, the suggestion is that I am
 6   suggesting that the only explanation for that
 7   question is sinister.  I am a part of a
 8   team conducting an investigation into your
 9   daughter's death, and an innocent explanation
10   that would help us further that investigation
11   is very welcome.  I am not looking for a
12   sinister answer or innocent answer.
13            MR. WOOD:  If you are looking for
14   that, then give us the test result and let
15   us know what it says.
16            MR. LEVIN:  Mr. Wood, the fact 
17   of --
18            MR. WOOD:  No, Bruce.  If you
19   wanted the answer so badly, you would give
20   us the test result instead of representing
21   what the test result is.  I, for the life
22   of me, do not understand the logic.
23            You say we can tell you what the
24   test result is, but we can't show you the
25   test result.  So trust us, Mr. Ramsey, and
0063
 1   answer this hypothetical question.
 2            If that information means that
 3   much to this investigation, Bruce, you would
 4   not hesitate to give us that report, period. 
 5   So let's move to something else.
 6            MR. LEVIN:  Let's move on to
 7   another topic.
 8            THE WITNESS:  If the question is
 9   how did fibers of your shirt get into your
10   daughter's underwear, I say that is not
11   possible.  I don't believe it.  That is
12   ridiculous.
13            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  I need to
14   change the audio cassette.  It will take
15   just one moment.
16            MR. WOOD:  Did we ever find it?
17            MR. KANE:  No.  I can't put my
18   finger on it.  I will send it to you.
19            THE WITNESS:  Well, we have
20   never, knowingly to me, ever solicited any
21   funds from the public.
22            It was not the intent and is not
23   the intent.  In fact, we may even not accept
24   funds from the public because of the
25   innuendoes that seem to be cast upon that.
0064
 1            MR. WOOD:  So that we are clear,
 2   too, and Mr. Kane, you do not have this
 3   alleged --
 4            MR. KANE:  I have --
 5            MR. WOOD:  Excuse me, let me
 6   finish.
 7            MR. KANE:  Okay.
 8            MR. WOOD:  You do not have as
 9   you represented or at least thought, you do
10   not have here today this public relations ad
11   or whatever you called it claiming that John
12   and Patsy were soliciting public funds?  You
13   said you would look for it, and send it to
14   me. 
15            MR. KANE:  Yes.  It is on my
16   computer somewhere, and I can't find it.
17     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, when
18   you came home on the 25th, do you recall if
19   you threw your clothes down the chute to the
20   second floor where someone who might have
21   been in the house would have access to them? 
22   Can you tell us who might have done that?
23     A.     Who knows.  I don't know.
24     Q.     I understand it is tough.
25     A.     I really don't.  Yeah, I don't
0065
 1   know.
 2            MR. WOOD:  I mean, you asked for
 3   his clothes in December of '97, you got them
 4   in January of '98.  Why, for the love of
 5   common sense and logic, wouldn't you have
 6   asked him about that in June of 1998 when
 7   his memory was a lot more fresh, at least
 8   fresher than it is now two plus years later?
 9   But, you know, that's just a part of the
10   ongoing mystery of some of the aspects of
11   the case, I guess, in terms of the
12   investigation.
13     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) Wool shirts, would
14   those normally go out to the cleaners or
15   would it depend?  Even now, what is your
16   family practice?
17     A.     Well, if it is a dry-cleaning
18   item, we'd normally send it directly to the
19   dry cleaners.  Once in a while they get
20   thrown in by mistake, but particularly if it
21   is a shirt.
22     Q.     Your dry-cleaning items, would you
23   just throw them down the chute and let Linda
24   sort them out, this is dry-cleaning, this
25   gets washed or would you separate them up
0066
 1   front and keep them in a separate place, if
 2   you recall?
 3     A.     I don't -- I am trying to
 4   remember where the laundry chute went to.  I
 5   mean, it probably -- I wasn't that organized
 6   to separate things out like that as a normal
 7   course of business.
 8            MR. BECKNER:  Did you ask what he
 9   did on that particular night with the shirt? 
10   I missed that.
11            THE WITNESS:  Frankly, I don't
12   remember.
13            MR. LEVIN:  I thought I had asked
14   you.  I wasn't sure if that was clear.
15            THE WITNESS:  I mean, typically
16   if it is a wool shirt, something that does
17   require dry-cleaning, I try to get several
18   cycles out of it, but I don't remember.
19            MR. BECKNER:  What was your
20   normal routine?
21            THE WITNESS:  Well, normally, I
22   would --
23            MR. WOOD:  About dry-cleaning?
24            MR. BECKNER:  No.
25            THE WITNESS:  -- I would hang
0067
 1   onto it.  If it was something I wanted to
 2   wear again, I'd hang it, I'd try to, I'd
 3   usually hang it up.  Sometimes I would put
 4   it on a chair.  But I wasn't religious about
 5   that.  I would normally try to hang it up.
 6     Q.     (By Chief Beckner)  Let me be
 7   more specific.  Would you throw your clothes
 8   on the floor typically in a pile?
 9     A.     Well, no, not, not if I was, if
10   I was going to wear it again.  If it was
11   headed for the laundry, you know, it could
12   end up on the floor before it ended up in
13   the laundry chute, but if I intend to wear
14   it again, if it was a suit or sweater, or
15   something like that, I normally wouldn't
16   throw it on the floor.
17            MR. WOOD:  Have we finished that
18   area of questioning because it seemed like
19   maybe it is a good time to take a short
20   break.
21            MR. LEVIN:  I am finished with
22   that area.
23            MR. WOOD:  Is that okay for
24   everybody to take a short break?
25            MR. LEVIN:  That is good.
0068
 1            MR. WOOD:  Any guesstimate on
 2   time? 
 3            MR. LEVIN:  How about if we
 4   discuss it during the break.
 5            MR. WOOD:  I am not looking to
 6   force you to answer, but curious for lunch
 7   plans.
 8            MR. LEVIN: Certainly as a courtesy
 9   we will tell you.  Let us talk about it and
10   we will let you know.
11            (WHEREUPON, a brief recess was
12   taken.)
13            THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  All ready.
14            MR. KANE:  Shall I go?  Okay.
15     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) Mr. Ramsey, after
16   December 26, 1996, did you ever go back in
17   the house?
18     A.     No.
19     Q.     You never were in it after that?
20     A.     No.
21     Q.     Did you ever go back to the
22   house?
23     A.     I think I drove by it, but I
24   never went back to the house.
25     Q.     You mentioned Dorothy Allison
0069
 1   earlier.  Is this Dorothy Allison the
 2   psychic, she is now dead?
 3     A.     As far as I know.  I heard she
 4   is dead.
 5     Q.     Well, I said that.  That wasn't a
 6   question.  Dorothy Allison is the Dorothy
 7   Allison who was a psychic that's made
 8   comments about this?
 9     A.     As far as I know.  I never laid
10   eyes on Dorothy Allison, nor heard her.  She
11   was on a television program about this case,
12   and we received information as a result of
13   some things she said in terms of leads.
14     Q.     Okay.  And that was part of that
15   packet you handed in there?
16     A.     Uh-huh (affirmative).
17     Q.     There was a sketch that was made
18   based on a description that she --
19     A.     Right.
20     Q.     -- created.  Are you aware of
21   that, that sketch?
22     A.     Yes.
23     Q.     Have you gotten any leads as a
24   result of that sketch?
25     A.     We have gotten -- I know the lead
0070
 1   level went up dramatically when we put that
 2   out there, and I think the reason for
 3   putting it out there was to keep things
 4   stirred up.  One of our objectives certainly
 5   has been to keep this active in the public's
 6   mind.
 7     Q.     So after that --
 8     A.     Yeah, we got a lot of leads after
 9   that.
10     Q.     When you say you put it out
11   there, what do you mean?
12     A.     It was put on our website by the
13   investigators.
14     Q.     Okay.  And you say after that, it
15   got put on your website, you got a lot 
16   of --
17     A.     Yeah.
18     Q.     And is that still on your
19   website?
20     A.     I haven't looked, but I don't
21   believe so.
22     Q.     Why is that?
23     A.     We are trying to keep the website
24   active so people come back.  The whole
25   objective here is to keep it stirred up,
0071
 1   keep it active.
 2     Q.     Is the ransom note on the
 3   website?
 4     A.     It was -- well, the ransom note?
 5   No, I don't think so.  No, not that I know
 6   of.  I mean, I haven't seen it there.
 7     Q.     Was that a conscious decision not
 8   to put it on?
 9     A.     I wasn't directly involved with
10   what went on that website from the beginning. 
11   I don't know if it was a conscious decision
12   or not.  
13            MR. WOOD:  I think Ollie would
14   probably know.
15            THE WITNESS:  I think it's on the
16   web in other places, I've been told. 
17     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) Have you been
18   involved in any efforts to publicize the
19   ransom note?
20     A.     No.  Not -- we wanted it released
21   early on based on strong recommendations that
22   that be done, but --
23     Q.     But you haven't, yourself,
24   promoted that or anything?
25     A.     Uh-uh (indicating negatively).
0072
 1     Q.     Have you gotten anybody in the
 2   last two years who has contacted you saying
 3   they recognize the handwriting?
 4     A.     We have gotten, we have gotten
 5   handwriting samples from people that say this
 6   looks familiar.  The woman that turned her
 7   ex-husband in sent us a volume of his
 8   handwriting samples.
 9     Q.     Well, she was dismissed on other
10   grounds, from what I understand?
11     A.     Well, yes.
12     Q.     Was there anybody else besides her
13   who submitted handwriting?
14            MR. WOOD:  I told you about the
15   Fleet White package that I received.
16            MR. KANE:  Yes.  That is right. 
17   Fleet White.
18            MR. LEVIN:  If I can interrupt
19   for just a second, that's based on
20   linguistics, though, if I understood you?
21            MR. WOOD:  To tell you the truth,
22   I haven't, other than to recognize what it
23   was, I did not try to study it.  So I
24   wouldn't -- my impression was initially it
25   was linguistics, but it might be, it might
0073
 1   reference handwriting.
 2            MR. KANE:  Was that a handwritten
 3   note or something of Fleet or --
 4            MR. WOOD:  No.  It's about an
 5   inch and a half thick report.
 6            MR. KANE:  Okay.  But it's not
 7   handwritten, I was talking about handwriting
 8   here, was that in here?
 9            MR. WOOD:  That is what I was
10   telling Bruce.  I didn't study it other than
11   to recognize that it was someone sending me
12   an analysis of Fleet White's writings.  And
13   whether it is limited to linguistics or
14   whether it goes into the handwriting issue, I
15   wouldn't state on the record without being
16   certain, but I will get that to you all and
17   you will know exactly what it is.
18     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  So, I'm sorry, YOU
19   were saying, you said the Allison woman. 
20   Anybody else whose handwriting has been
21   submitted based on -- well, by anybody?
22     A.     Well, we received a package that
23   was delivered anonymously, which I believe we
24   turned over to police a couple of years ago. 
25   I don't know.  It's been --
0074
 1     Q.     I mean, to your recollection, has
 2   there been any handwriting you received as a
 3   result of the massive publicity about the
 4   handwriting, or about the ransom note?
 5     A.     Is there any?  Yeah, yeah.
 6     Q.     You received that or your
 7   investigators have?
 8     A.     Yeah, as far as I know.
 9     Q.     Have you had any of that analyzed
10   by any experts?
11     A.     I know early on we had Chris
12   Wolf's handwriting looked at.  I know we had
13   them look at several.
14     Q.     There have been others that have
15   been looked at by your experts?
16     A.     As far as I know.
17     Q.     Which experts are these now?  I
18   am aware of Mr. Ryle and Mr. Cunningham.
19     A.     As far as I know, that is who
20   looked at it.  
21     Q.     And when you say as far as you
22   know, I mean, have you talked to them about
23   their --
24     A.     I've never talked to Ryle and
25   Cunningham directly.
0075
 1     Q.     Have you received information
 2   about them, because I am not aware that they
 3   looked at any others when I asked them
 4   besides Chris Wolf?  Have you received
 5   information that they have, in fact, looked
 6   at those?
 7     A.     I have not received information. 
 8   It is my impression that they have, yes.
 9     Q.     What was that impression based
10   upon?
11     A.     The thousands and thousands of
12   information bits that hit me every day from
13   everywhere.
14            I don't know.  Ask them.
15     Q.     (By Mr. Beckner)  You mentioned
16   Chris Wolf.  Did you know Chris Wolf prior
17   to the death of your daughter?
18     A.     No.
19     Q.     (By Chief Beckner)  Had you ever
20   heard of Chris Wolf?
21     A.     No.
22            MR. WOOD:  There is some
23   connection between Wolf and the Colorado
24   University.  Somebody has indicated that
25   there may have been.
0076
 1            MR. WICKMAN:  I thought that he
 2   had been to a class.  
 3            MR. KANE:  I lost my place here.
 4     Q.     (By Mr. Kane)  You are aware of
 5   Jackie Dilson?
 6     A.     Uh-huh (affirmative).
 7     Q.     Have you ever spoken with Jackie
 8   Dilson yourself?
 9     A.     Not directly, I don't believe. 
10   We got a videotaped message from her months
11   ago, and that's the first time I had ever 
12   seen her.
13     Q.     So you never had an one-on-one
14   conversation with her?
15     A.     No.  Our investigators had, I
16   know, at some length.
17     Q.     Do you recall, when you left
18   Jalleo, is that how you pronounce it?
19     A.     Jalleo.
20     Q.     Jalleo.  Jim Marino was quoted in
21   the Denver papers about your leaving.  Do
22   you remember that at all?
23     A.     No, I don't remember the 
24   quote.
25            MR. WOOD:  Do you have a quote
0077
 1   you can put in front of him to look at to
 2   refresh him?
 3            MR. KANE:  I just asked him if
 4   he would remember it. 
 5            MR. WOOD:  Why don't you tell him
 6   what the quote was.  Maybe he will remember.
 7            (By Mr. Kane) Well, he said that
 8   you had left Jalleo to concentrate on the
 9   investigation, that he had spoken to you the
10   week before?
11     A.     I left Jalleo because of the
12   tarnished reputation that had been laid upon
13   me was detrimental to the business.
14     Q.     Okay.  So it didn't have anything
15   to do with spending more time on the
16   investigation?
17     A.     No.  
18     Q.     You also said that you had gotten
19   a lot of, maybe not a lot, but you got
20   experts to volunteer their time on the case. 
21   Who are those people?  I never heard a name,
22   but that statement.
23     A.     Well, it was part of the group
24   that we asked to present to you in January. 
25   John Douglas spent time on it.  We have a
0078
 1   number of psychologists that have offered
 2   their help.
 3     Q.     Do you know who they are?
 4     A.     Well, one of the letters I have
 5   is in the file.  We can certainly provide
 6   that to you.
 7     Q.     I will be honest with you, when I
 8   got the letter in January, the only person
 9   who was mentioned in there was Kris Sperry. 
10     A.     My impression was that it was a
11   group of people who had looked at it.  It
12   was being led by John -- wasn't Wardman.  He
13   used to be a -- whether it is a prosecutor
14   in Denver or not, but I met with him a
15   couple of times.
16     Q.     Was he the one from Oregon?
17     A.     Yes.  I cannot remember the name. 
18   But he had a medical associate that was
19   involved with it, I know, out of New Mexico,
20   I think.
21     Q.     What was that person's
22   involvement?
23     A.     He was a, I believe -- I believe
24   he was a --
25            MR. LEVIN:  Forensic pathologist?
0079
 1   That is Sperry.  Out of New Mexico?
 2            THE WITNESS:  There is another
 3   guy.
 4            MR. RAMSEY:  There are several --
 5            MR. LEVIN:  Sperry worked in New
 6   Mexico on an Indian reservation to pay off
 7   his student loans many years ago.
 8            THE WITNESS:  No.  This is a guy
 9   who I believe currently lives in New Mexico. 
10   It's not Sperry.  I can get you their names. 
11   I just don't remember off the top of my
12   head.  This was a year ago.
13     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) Why did you write
14   the book?
15     A.     Needed the money.  First of all,
16   we wanted to tell our story.  We had been
17   lied about in the press for three years.  We
18   wanted to address every one of the media
19   myths that were out there.  We wanted one
20   place that the truth was encapsulated.  And
21   we wanted to find the killer of our
22   daughter.
23     Q.     So by publicizing information, you
24   thought it would generate --
25     A.     Yeah.
0080
 1     Q.     Okay.  Why did you decline to put
 2   in anything about your own investigation?
 3     A.     One of the problems we had with
 4   the book is it got way too big.  I know
 5   that.  And we had to cut a lot.
 6     Q.     Why did you decide to cut that?
 7     A.     I don't know that we cut that at
 8   all.  I don't remember if it was in there
 9   to start with.
10     Q.     Well, you made a statement about
11   it.  
12            MR. WOOD:  What page?
13            THE WITNESS:  What's the point?
14            MR. KANE:  On page, it's 373.
15     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) You say to avoid an
16   accusation of grand standing from the media,
17   not much will be said outside of a close
18   circle about our own efforts to find the
19   killer.
20     A.     And not much has been said about
21   it. 
22            MR. WOOD:  Doesn't that answer
23   your question then?
24     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) Well, was that, I
25   mean, was that the reason --
0081
 1     A.     Yes.
 2     Q.     -- because you didn't want to be
 3   accused of grand standing?
 4     A.     We have been in a position, and
 5   we have been for the past three and a half
 6   years, where we are damned if we do, damned
 7   if we don't.  And that was our position.
 8     Q.     Do you still consider Priscilla
 9   White to be a suspect?
10     A.     I never considered either of the
11   Whites to be a suspect.  Their behavior
12   post-December '96 was very, very strange. 
13   And that -- we were frightened of it, pure
14   and simple.
15            MR. WOOD:  Did they ever --
16            THE WITNESS:  But I -- you know,
17   we were at their home that evening, they
18   were in good spirits, they had relatives
19   there, I had no reason to consider them
20   suspects.
21            MR. WOOD:  All of their letters,
22   you made mention of this, and it now has
23   struck that cord with me on handwriting, it
24   seems that all of Fleet's and Priscilla's
25   joint letters have been typed.  Do you all
0082
 1   have handwriting on Fleet White?
 2            MR. KANE:  I am sure we do.  I
 3   know we do.
 4            (By Mr. Kane) Maybe the word
 5   suspect then needs to be defined.  Do you
 6   today think there is a possibility that
 7   Priscilla White killed your daughter?
 8     A.     We have not eliminated anyone in
 9   our minds.  We have become suspicious of
10   everyone.  And that's how I feel.
11     Q.     Is there anything, other than what
12   you described on several occasions about what
13   happened down in Atlanta around the time of
14   the funeral, is there anything other than
15   that that would suggest --
16     A.     Yeah.  God, he is in the paper
17   every few months with some 20 page letter. 
18   I just think that -- I don't understand it. 
19   I can't explain it.  I don't know if he --
20   I mean, it was a traumatic event.  They were
21   there.  I don't know.  But our feeling was
22   that their behavior was frightening.
23            MR. WOOD:  You all are aware that
24   there is a problem exists between the libel
25   charges and all of the background behind
0083
 1   that?
 2            MR. KANE:  Yes. 
 3            MR. WOOD:  So all of that, for
 4   whatever reason, is bizarre.
 5            THE WITNESS:  But it makes no
 6   sense.
 7            MR. WOOD:  Or for whatever
 8   reason.  I am not suggesting bizarre to any
 9   individual, but the whole thing is bizarre.
10     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, I
11   don't know for a fact it has been answered,
12   so if the question sounds kind of naive,
13   bear with me.  Neither Priscilla nor Fleet,
14   since '98, have made any attempts to contact
15   you, reconcile, restore your friendship, have
16   they?
17     A.     Well, they -- we were staying at
18   the Stein's, and they apparently, I learned
19   later, approached Susan, asked to meet with
20   us.  And she refused.  I wasn't aware of
21   that at the time.  There would have been no
22   reason to do that.  But maybe that added
23   fuel to the fire.  I don't know.  From
24   their perspective.
25            But I had written Fleet.  I had
0084
 1   a sail off of a sailboard that belonged to
 2   him that got packed inadvertently.  And I
 3   sent it back to him with a note, don't
 4   believe what you've read in the media.
 5            He burst in on me one day when I
 6   was meeting with our minister, and I talked
 7   to him then.  But other than that --
 8     Q.     But nothing in '99 or since June
 9   of '98 --
10     A.     No.
11     Q.     -- no attempts or no letters from
12   them to renew --
13     A.     No.
14     Q.     -- your friendship?
15     A.     No.
16     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) Have you been
17   critical of the Boulder police for not
18   interviewing everyone who was around the
19   neighborhood?
20     A.     I have been told that that wasn't
21   done at the beginning, and I had been
22   critical of that, yes.
23     Q.     The people who were not
24   interviewed, have your investigators
25   interviewed them?
0085
 1            MR. WOOD:  Hold on one second. 
 2   I think you are comparing apples and oranges,
 3   slightly.  If I understood your question, you
 4   are asking, was he critical of the fact they
 5   weren't interviewed.
 6            MR. KANE:  Yeah.
 7            MR. WOOD:  And I think his answer
 8   was, yes, that they weren't interviewed early
 9   on.  And obviously the opportunity for his
10   investigators to interview them early on, you
11   know, is lost.
12            THE WITNESS:  My understanding is
13   the information we sent to Chief Beckner was
14   a list of people that we were aware of that
15   hadn't been talked to, and I believe the
16   Chief said he had, that that had been done. 
17   So --
18     Q.     (By Mr. Kane) Have any of your
19   investigators interviewed any of those people
20   themselves?
21     A.     I know they have interviewed a
22   number of people.  I don't know if they have
23   interviewed all of them.  I mean, ask our
24   investigator.
25     Q.     Mr. Ramsey, to follow up on the
0086
 1   neighborhood, it was brought to my 
 2   attention --
 3            THE WITNESS:  Do we want an
 4   answer to that question or not?
 5            MR. WOOD:  If you all make your
 6   list, add that to the list when all is said
 7   and done, and I will consider it and get you
 8   an answer if it is appropriate.  It probably
 9   will be.
10     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) It was brought to
11   my attention fairly recently that a woman I
12   believe named Jean Fortier, F-o-r-t-i-e-r, for
13   the reporter, who are the parents of some
14   children who were over your house on
15   Christmas, and they, they, she, excuse me,
16   said that her children reported to her at
17   Christmas day when they went over to play,
18   they played with Burke but that JonBenet did
19   not play because she was sick.  I hadn't
20   heard that before.  Is that nonsense?
21     A.     Absolutely.  I don't know who
22   that is, but we had a whole parcel of kids
23   there all day.
24            MR. KANE:  I have to bolt.
25            MR. LEVIN:  Do you have anything
0087
 1   left?
 2            MR. KANE:  No.
 3            MR. LEVIN:  Mike's got to catch a
 4   plane.
 5            (WHEREUPON, Mr. Kane left the
 6   interview.)
 7     Q.     (By Chief Beckner)  What about
 8   your relationship with John and Barbara
 9   Furnham --
10     A.     It was -- they were good friends. 
11   We spent a fair amount of time together. 
12   They were good family friends.
13     Q.     Are they still good friends?
14     A.     Well, we certainly consider them
15   friends.  Barbara had some emotional problems
16   before this all happened, and John wrote us,
17   I don't know, I guess months later and said
18   that Barbara is having difficulty dealing
19   with this and please ask Patsy not to write
20   her or respond to her.
21            I have talked to John a few
22   times, but not, not recently. 
23     Q.     Since June of '98, have you
24   talked to John?
25     A.     Possibly.  I don't remember
0088
 1   specifically, but I have talked to him
 2   probably twice, I guess.
 3     Q.     By telephone?
 4     A.     By telephone.
 5     Q.     (By Mr. Wickman)  John, I asked
 6   this of Patsy earlier this morning.  Since
 7   you relocated to Atlanta, have there been any
 8   threats to you, to her, or to Burke?
 9     A.     There have been.  In fact, I just
10   got one last night on the internet.  The guy
11   was in New York and said if I ever came to
12   New York, I was done for.
13            We've had people come to our 
14   door -- I mean to our home.  We put a gate
15   up.  But what has been uplifting for us is
16   that, in the last three and a half years,
17   virtually everyone who has approached us has
18   been kind and sympathetic.
19            But we would get occasional hate
20   letters.  We haven't gotten many, haven't
21   gotten too many recently other than the one
22   last night.
23     Q.     I was in discussion with an
24   Atlanta detective probably a year and a half
25   ago about some guy beating on your door in
0089
 1   order to meet somebody -- I don't know if it
 2   was you or Patsy -- at the club or
 3   something.  Do you remember that?
 4     A.     Yeah.  Yeah.  I remember that. 
 5   That was one of the, he rang our doorbell
 6   basically at 2:00 in the morning and said, I
 7   saw the lights were on so I figured we were
 8   up.  We had an intercom system.  He said I
 9   have got critical information.  Well, it's
10   2:00, we will meet you.  I think he said
11   yes to that and we called the Atlanta police
12   and I guess they contacted you.
13     Q.     Yeah, and I don't remember, but I
14   don't think it panned out.
15     A.     No.  The Atlanta police came back
16   that afternoon and said the guy was
17   certifiable, and we never heard from him
18   again.
19     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, your
20   wife told us that there was a college
21   student that was staying with the Steins, I
22   believe, named Nathan Inouwe?
23            MR. WOOD:  It was a reference in
24   the book.
25     Q.     (By Mr. Levin) Okay.  Had you,
0090
 1   prior to the murder of your daughter, had
 2   you had any contact with him?
 3     A.     Yeah.  We would see him at their
 4   house.  He would drive the kids to school
 5   occasionally in a carpool, Patsy would take
 6   them, sometimes, Susan would sometimes or
 7   Nathan would take them.
 8     Q.     Was there anything unusual about
 9   his conduct -- and I am asking for your
10   contemporaneous impression, and then I'm going
11   to ask you about the post-murder impression.
12   Your contemporaneous impression of Mr. Inouwe
13   I assume was favorable if you let him drive
14   your kids to school?
15     A.     Yes.  He was a very, very kind,
16   nice person.
17     Q.     Keeping in mind that you told us
18   that you are suspicious of everyone, is there
19   anything in particular about Mr. Inouwe,
20   using the power of hindsight, that causes you
21   today to be particularly suspicious of him?
22     A.     Nothing specifically in terms of
23   his actions or what he said.  Have I
24   eliminated him?  No, I haven't.  I thought
25   about that from time to time, but I don't
0091
 1   consider him of strong, strong interest.
 2     Q.     We asked Mrs. Ramsey about the
 3   Bloomi's underpants that JonBenet was wearing
 4   when she was found murdered, and we are
 5   trying to kind of track those from purchase
 6   to her.  And again, I suspect you probably
 7   don't have detailed information -- 
 8     A.     No.
 9     Q.     -- about your child's underwear,
10   but you can see why I need to ask the
11   questions; right? 
12     A.     Right.
13     Q.     We believe that they were
14   purchased in November of 1996.  Were you
15   aware of their existence before JonBenet's
16   death?
17     A.     No, but I wouldn't have been. 
18   But I mean, I -- what I know is what was
19   asked of Patsy when she said, you know, we
20   were on a trip to New York.  She bought
21   them and I think had planned to give them to
22   her niece, who is older than JonBenet, and
23   then they, for some reason, decided that
24   JonBenet would have them.  I don't know if
25   she wanted them or if Patsy gave them to
0092
 1   her, but --
 2     Q.     The niece that they were purchased
 3   for, I think, was Jenny Davis?
 4     A.     Uh-huh (affirmative).
 5     Q.     Do you recall approximately how
 6   big she was in 1996?  I know it is a tough
 7   question.
 8     A.     She's either a junior or a senior
 9   in high school now.  And she's fairly
10   stocky.
11     Q.     Was there anything about the
12   Bloomi's underwear that was particularly,
13   other than the fact that they come from
14   Bloomingdale's, fascinating that caused them
15   to be, you know, JonBenet would talk about
16   them or something, like I have these cool
17   panties that have the days of the week,
18   anything that would direct your attention to
19   them?
20     A.     No, no.
21     Q.     As far as the size, they were for
22   an 85-pound girl.  Were you aware she was
23   wearing these real big panties?
24     A.     Only after the fact.
25     Q.     After the fact?
0093
 1     A.     Yeah.
 2     Q.     Our information that we developed
 3   from the grand, well -- after the grand
 4   jury, actually, were you unaware of any
 5   incident where JonBenet had any accidents at
 6   school where she would have to go into the
 7   extra panty box that most grammar schools
 8   keep for young kids?  Do you have a memory
 9   of an incident that is contrary to that?
10     A.     At school?
11     Q.     Yes.
12     A.     No.
13     Q.     (By Chief Beckner)  Did you, the
14   night of the 25th, did you help undress
15   JonBenet?
16     A.     I did.  I think I was asked that
17   before, but I don't -- I mean, I at least
18   took her shoes off, I believe, later on.  I
19   carried her upstairs, laid her in bed, took
20   her shoes off.  I don't know if I took her
21   coat off.  
22            Usually what I would do is try to
23   get her semi-ready for bed because it wasn't
24   infrequent she would fall to sleep when we
25   came home like that, before we got home. 
0094
 1   Patsy would come in, get her in bed totally.
 2     Q.     I guess what I mean is, did you
 3   notice at that time whether she was or was
 4   not wearing underwear?
 5     A.     I mean, I think I would have
 6   noticed if she wasn't.  But I don't
 7   remember.  I really don't.
 8     Q.     Do you recall if you took her
 9   underwear off?
10     A.     No, I'm sure I did not.
11            MR. LEVIN:  Mr. Wickman? 
12   Questions?
13            MS. HARMER:  Nothing.
14            MR. LEVIN:  I think we are done.
15            MR. WOOD:  All right.
16            MR. LEVIN:  Thank you for talking
17   to us.
18            MR. BECKNER:  Thank you for your
19   time.
20            THE WITNESS:  You are welcome. 
21   Thanks for coming out.
22            (Whereupon, the interview of JOHN
23   RAMSEY was concluded.)
24   .
25   .
0095
 1   .STATE OF GEORGIA:
 2   COUNTY OF FULTON:
 3     I hereby certify that the foregoing
 4   transcript was reported, as stated in the
 5   caption, and the questions and answers
 6   thereto were reduced to typewriting under my
 7   direction; that the foregoing pages represent
 8   a true, complete, and correct transcript of
 9   the evidence given upon said hearing, and I
10   further certify that I am not of kin or
11   counsel to the parties in the case; am not
12   in the employ of counsel for any of said
13   parties; nor am I in anywise interested in
14   the result of said case.
15   .
16   .
17   
18   
19          ALEXANDER J. GALLO, CCR-B-1332
20          My commission expires on the
21          17th day of March, 2001.
22   .
23   .
24   .
25   .