13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Now, Mrs. Ramsey,
14 you -- are you aware, I should say, that
15 your paint kit was found very close to the
16 wine cellar door?
17 A. I have heard that.
18 Q. Did you recall at any time that
19 you were shown photographs in that regard?
20 A. No.
21 Q. We have found, and I want you to
22 help us, maybe you can offer an explanation
23 for this. We have found fibers in the paint
24 tray that appear to come off of the coat in
25 the photograph we showed you.
1 A. In the paint tray?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. What's a paint --
4 MR. WOOD: Hold on. Let him ask
5 you his question and then answer his
6 question. What is your question?
7 MR. LEVIN: I did.
8 MR. WOOD: You got your answer?
9 MR. LEVIN: Well, I got, she said
10 what's a paint tray.
11 MR. WOOD: No, she didn't. She
12 was following your question, in the paint
13 tray because you said we have found, and I
14 want you to help us, maybe you can offer an
15 explanation for this. We have found fibers
16 in the paint tray that appear to come off of
17 the coat in the photograph we showed you.
18 What is the question?
19 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Can you explain
20 for us how the fibers from the coat got in
21 the paint tray?
22 MR. WOOD: Are you stipulating as
23 a fact that the fibers that you say are in
24 the paint tray, in fact, came from that coat
25 that we earlier discussed, or is it simply a
1 matter that you say they may have? Because
2 I am not going to let her answer
3 argumentative, hypothetical opinions. I will
4 let her answer if you are going to state it
5 as a matter of fact that that fiber came
6 from that jacket.
7 MR. LEVIN: I can state to you,
8 Mr. Wood, that, given the current state of
9 the scientific examination of fibers, that,
10 based on the state of the art technology,
11 that I believe, based on testing, that fibers
12 from your client's coat are in the paint
14 MR. WOOD: Are you stating as a
15 fact that they are from the coat or is it
16 consistent with? What is the test result
17 terminology? Is it conclusive? I mean, I
18 think she is entitled to know that when you
19 ask her to explain something.
20 MR. KANE: It is identical in all
21 scientific respects.
22 MR. WOOD: What does that mean?
23 Are you telling me it is conclusive?
24 MR. KANE: It is identical.
25 MR. WOOD: Are you saying it is
1 a conclusive match?
2 MR. KANE: You can draw your own
4 MR. WOOD: I am not going to
5 draw my own conclusions.
6 MR. KANE: I am saying it is
8 MR. WOOD: Well, what you are
9 saying in terms of how you interpret a lab
10 result may or may not be the lab result.
11 If you have it, let's see it. I would be
12 glad to let her answer a question about it,
13 but I don't want to go into the area of
14 where we are dealing with someone's
15 interpretation of something that may not be a
16 fact and have her explain something because
17 she can't explain something that might be
18 someone's opinion or someone's interpretation.
19 She can try to answer something
20 if you are stating it as a matter of fact.
21 MR. LEVIN: Well, I believe that
22 Mr. Kane's statement is accurate as to what
23 the examiner would testify to.
24 MR. WOOD: Will he testify that
25 it is a conclusive match?
1 MR. KANE: Yes.
2 MR. WOOD: Everybody is -- you
3 all want to take a minute and confer on
5 MR. KANE: No.
6 MR. WOOD: Because I want to make
7 sure, if I am going to let her answer this,
8 that you are representing and stipulating
9 that it is a conclusive match.
10 MR. KANE: Well, come on, Lin, we
11 have been around a long time. You know, you
12 know exactly what I am saying.
13 MR. WOOD: No, I don't. I
14 honestly do not.
15 MR. KANE: Well, I am telling
16 you, it is -- is it conclusive in the sense
17 that, that there is something unique about it
18 that could only come from a particular item,
19 then the answer is no.
20 Is it that it is identical in all
21 respects to the fibers off of the jacket,
22 then the answer is yes.
23 Now, does that mean it is
25 MR. WOOD: It doesn't sound like
1 it to me.
2 MR. KANE: Then you have got your
4 MR. WOOD: It sounds like to
5 me --
6 MR. KANE: Then you have your
8 MR. WOOD: Then it is a matter
9 of opinion. It is not a matter of fact.
10 MR. KANE: Then you have your
12 MR. WOOD: I want to make sure,
13 because this is an area that you are asking
14 her to explain something that may or may not
15 be a fact because you are representing to
16 her, Ms. Ramsey, a fiber from your red and
17 black and gray jacket was found in the paint
18 tray, how do you explain it.
19 I mean, if it is a matter of
20 fact, I will let her answer that.
21 MR. LEVIN: Well, Mr. Wood, let
22 me -- I thought I made it as clear as
23 possible. I will try to clarify for you.
24 I assume that, in your practice,
25 that you have dealt with --
1 MR. WOOD: Don't assume anything
2 about my practice. I am asking you a
3 question. You used the term in your
4 question, Mr. Levin, you used the term in
5 your question, and I am sure that you have
6 precisely framed your questions. You said
8 Now, "appears to be" and "is," in
9 my practice, are two different things. I
10 want to make very clear what the question is
11 before I let her answer. That is all I am
13 MR. LEVIN: Given -- and I want
14 to answer your question. I am going to try
15 to answer your question before I phrase it
16 to your client.
17 Given the status of fiber
18 analysis, the state of the art, that fiber
19 is identical in all respects to fibers from
20 your client's coat; however, as is the case
21 with any type of scientific evidence, even
22 DNA evidence, where you get numbers that say,
23 for example, the likelihood of a random match
24 would be 1 in, say, 14 trillion. An expert
25 is not going to get up, they'll talk about
1 numbers, but they are not going to get up
2 and say that that is the DNA from that man.
3 MR. WOOD: Maybe you should give
4 us the numbers on this fiber.
5 MR. LEVIN: There are no numbers
6 on the fiber.
7 MR. WOOD: Give us that, whatever
8 you got, and we will look at it.
9 MR. LEVIN: Do you understand
10 what I'm saying? I don't want to, I don't
11 want to mislead you because scientific
12 evidence is always subject to --
13 MR. WOOD: That's why I don't
14 think she should be put into the position of
15 explaining something that scientists may
16 differ on.
17 MR. LEVIN: Well, scientists will
18 differ on many, many things.
19 MR. WOOD: Well, then -- that is
20 my point. She shouldn't be explaining
21 something that one person may say this
22 appears to be the case and the other person
23 may say no, it doesn't appear to be the
24 case. You are putting her in an incredibly
25 awkward situation.
1 CHIEF BECKNER: Let me try to
2 offer a compromise.
3 MR. WOOD: We are ready to hear
5 CHIEF BECKNER: Instead of wording
6 the question in terms of fibers from the
7 jacket or appear to be from the jacket,
8 maybe if you word it fibers that by
9 scientific analysis are identical to fibers
10 from the jacket and not say, not identify
11 those fibers from the jacket but say
12 identical to fibers --
13 MR. WOOD: What if we left out
14 the fiber problem altogether and just simply
15 ask her whether or not she ever had the
16 jacket, the red and black, gray jacket in
17 the proximity of the paint tray. We don't
18 have to fight the question of what the fiber
19 is or isn't. Isn't that what you really
20 want to find out?
21 CHIEF BECKNER: Well, I think
22 that is probably what Bruce and Mike were
23 trying to get to is is there an explanation.
24 MR. WOOD: Well, but again, I am
25 not trying to prevent there from being an
1 explanation as to the question of the jacket
2 in proximity to the paint tray, but I am
3 very much concerned about her trying to
4 explain something that may or may not be the
5 case scientifically based on opinion.
6 MR. LEVIN: I will rephrase the
7 question and maybe this will satisfy you.
8 MR. WOOD: Okay.
9 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mrs. Ramsey, I
10 have scientific evidence from forensic
11 scientists that say that there's fibers in
12 the paint tray that match your red jacket.
13 I have no evidence from any scientist to
14 suggest that those fibers are from any source
15 other than your red jacket.
16 MR. WOOD: Well, you can't ask
17 her -- Come on. What other sources did they
18 test? How many other red jackets and red
19 and black jackets did they test? That is an
20 unfair question on the face of it, Bruce.
21 Did they test anything other than that red
22 and black jacket?
23 I mean, they can't have
24 information that it could come from another
25 source if they didn't test another source,
1 for gosh sakes. So, I mean, that doesn't
2 help solve the dilemma.
3 I think what you want to know is,
4 you suspect, apparently, for whatever reason,
5 that there may be a match or there may be a
6 fiber from her red and black jacket that was
7 on the paint -- in the paint tray, but we
8 are not at all clear whether that is a fact
9 or whether that's just something that you
10 believe may or may not be the case.
11 MR. LEVIN: Well, I told you in
12 the question and I told you face-to-face
13 that, given the most sophisticated testing
14 available at this time, there is fiber
15 evidence in that paint tray that matches.
16 MR. WOOD: Then fairly we would
17 like to see that evidence so we can then let
18 her answer it so she can fairly know what
19 the actual results are.
20 I think that is a fair request.
21 MR. LEVIN: Whether it is her
22 fiber or not, I mean, if she can say I
23 can't explain it, I can't explain it, it
24 doesn't matter what the test says.
25 MR. WOOD: No, no, I think it
1 would be fair for her to be able to
2 recognize the question of whether this is
3 something that she even has to explain.
4 MR. MORRISSEY: Lin.
5 MR. WOOD: You know, a red fiber
6 can be in a paint tray from any number of
7 sources. I mean, we don't, you are asking,
8 specifically you are trying to attach
9 apparently a red fiber, I take it from her
10 jacket to the paint tray.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Lin, if we charge
12 an intruder in this case, this is a question
13 that is going to get asked her.
14 MR. WOOD: Well, I mean, but
15 you're going to be able, that intruder's
16 defense lawyer is going to have the benefit
17 of knowing what result, the test result that
18 you are looking at; true? So why shouldn't
19 Pat --
20 MR. MORRISSEY: And he is going
21 to be asking her this very same question.
22 MR. WOOD: Wouldn't that person
23 have the benefit of knowing your test result?
24 MR. MORRISSEY: Exactly.
25 MR. WOOD: And I think Patsy
1 ought to have the benefit too because I am
2 not going to let her speculate, and I don't
3 think you want her to speculate, that is all
4 I am saying. We will let her answer the
5 question, but I would like for her to fairly
6 know exactly what the factual underpinning is
7 or even if it is a factual underpinning or
8 whether it is a disputed issue in the case.
9 And then if you all -- why don't
10 we tag that and come back to it maybe after
11 lunch and let me think about it a little bit
12 and then you all think about it. And then
13 maybe after, we will resolve it, I think, in
14 a way that gets you the information that you
16 MR. MORRISSEY: The problem is,
17 even if it is somewhat in dispute, it is
18 going to get asked. I mean, a judge is,
19 would, would allow that. And, and these are
20 questions, these kinds of questions are the
21 things we need to know the answer to if we
22 are confronted with a scenario where we have
23 to put Mrs. Ramsey on the witness stand and
24 subject her to, explain to us how is it that
25 fibers that are identified back to your,
1 quote, coat as the source. Now, you know --
2 MR. WOOD: But her answer may be,
3 you know, did you check anything else?
4 MR. MORRISSEY: Well --
5 MR. WOOD: I mean, you know, the
6 intruder, what was, if you find the intruder
7 and you find clothing there, did you check
8 the intruder's clothing to see if it matches
9 the same, better, or whatever. I mean,
10 there are so many hypotheticals there that we
11 just have to know what we are talking about,
12 in all fairness, Mitch.
13 MR. MORRISSEY: But you understand
14 the position we are in as far as that is
15 going to get asked.
16 MR. WOOD: Yeah, but I also
17 understand that the body or universe of
18 evidence that may be in existence when that
19 is asked is totally different than what
20 exists here today. We don't even know what
21 other items were tested. We don't even know
22 what the test results are. And I am just
23 very hesitant to have Patsy speculate over
24 something that we don't know whether it is
25 true or not, we don't know what other things
1 were tested, et cetera.
2 That is my dilemma. Let me think
3 about it. We won't take a hard position on
4 it yet, but you all think about it in terms
5 of whether you might be able to can get some
6 additional information on it and we can come
7 back at a later date and answer it or we
8 can do it in a different fashion.
9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We need to
10 make a tape change.
11 MR. LEVIN: I think it is a good
12 lunch break and you can think about it
13 because there are other similar questions, so
14 the answer, your decision on this will
15 dictate what happens with a series of coming
16 questions, just so you know what is coming.
17 MR. WOOD: Well, and fairly, I
18 anticipated there might be something because,
19 I mean, the forensics issue is one that I
20 think everyone is aware of, tests that have
21 been done subsequent to June of 1998, and I
22 just wanted to make sure that we were not
23 asking her to answer questions that are based
24 on what could be differing opinions on
25 forensics --
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Audio cassette
2 has ended.
3 MR. WOOD: -- versus fact.
4 MR. LEVIN: I understand, I
5 understand your position.
6 MR. WOOD: Okay, thank you.
7 (A recess was taken.)