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Conferences Deposition discussion Topic #54
Reading Topic #54
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13618 posts
Nov-03-03, 11:22 PM (EST)
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"Patsy in Atlanta 1"
2 August 28, 2000
3 CHIEF BECKNER: Let me say we
4 appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and
5 ask you questions, and we appreciate your
6 willingness to do this. Mr. Wood, I
7 appreciate your cooperation as well.
8 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Chief. I
9 appreciate that.
10 THE WITNESS: We appreciate you
11 being here too.
12 CHIEF BECKNER: I will just
13 extend again, one of the reasons I made this
14 trip is based on your request that I come.
15 I normally don't do this. Normally I leave
16 it up to my investigators and to the D.A.
17 prosecutors, but I made this trip partially
18 because of your request. So if, after this,
19 after today or tomorrow, whenever we get
20 done, you want to meet just to talk in
21 general, I am willing to do that.
22 MR. WOOD: Thank you.
23 CHIEF BECKNER: I believe we had
24 introductions. Do you need everybody to
25 introduce themselves again to refresh

1 yourself?
2 MR. WOOD: I got it.
3 CHIEF BECKNER: Primarily today,
4 at least to start off, Bruce Levin and Mike
5 Kane are going to be asking the questions.
6 We may chime in at times if we have a
7 follow up question or something, but
8 primarily they will be asking most of the
9 questions.
10 MR. LEVIN: Mrs. Ramsey, we have
11 a lot of questions today. A lot of the
12 questions we will ask are simple
13 informational questions. Some of the
14 questions you may take as tough questions, if
15 I can use that term, quote/unquote.
16 Two years ago when you came out
17 to Boulder and we interviewed you in
18 Broomfield, I told Mr. Ramsey that if we
19 ever were to charge an intruder, Mr. Wood
20 will tell you this, every prosecutor in the
21 room will tell you, that the best defense is
22 if you can find an alternative suspect. And
23 if an intruder were ever charged in this
24 case, there is no doubt that their defense
25 would be I didn't do it, that Mr. and Mrs.

1 Ramsey did it.
2 And in order to raise the
3 reasonable doubt about their own guilt, they
4 would harp on that through the entire trial.
5 And, as a result, those types of questions
6 that would be asked by defense attorney
7 representing an intruder need to be answered,
8 and we need to ask you those questions. We
9 need to know what is the answer to those
10 questions.
11 Do you understand that? Do you
12 appreciate that we ask the question, we need
13 to have an absolutely honest answer, because
14 if we don't, if we don't get a -- if we
15 get a defensive answer, if we get an evasive
16 answer, all we are doing is playing into a
17 defense sometime down the road, some defense
18 attorney is going to use that to say my guy
19 didn't do it, John and Patsy Ramsey did it.
20 Do you understand that?
21 MR. WOOD: Let me say this for
22 your benefit, Michael. I don't know that
23 Patsy understands the intricate nature of a
24 defense in a criminal case, but I can tell
25 you this. We are here to answer any

1 questions as represented by the chief and
2 you. She is going answer those questions as
3 honestly as she can. That is all she is
4 here to do today. So why don't we go ahead
5 and get going.
6 MR. KANE: Well, I just want to
7 make it clear, though, because it is not
8 going to do anybody any good to give a
9 defensive answer. Don't take --
10 MR. WOOD: She is not going to
11 be offended by any questions.
12 MR. KANE: Okay. Fair enough.
13 MR. WOOD: If she is, we will
14 tell you. But I think we're going to do
15 fine and she's going to give you answers.
16 MR. KANE: But I would like Mrs.
17 Ramsey to assure me that. Not --
18 MR. WOOD: She is going to answer
19 your questions honestly, Michael.
20 MR. KANE: Mrs. Ramsey, do you
21 understand everything I just said?
22 THE WITNESS: I believe I do,
23 yes.
24 MR. KANE: Do you have any
25 questions about that?

1 THE WITNESS: Not at this time.
2 MR. KANE: Okay. And if you do,
3 just simply bring it up. Okay?
5 MR. KANE: Mr. Levin is going to
6 start off.

The opening - hard to tell if Kane and Company (K&C) are expecting an honest brainstorming session or if they know there willbe problems...

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Patsy in Atlanta 1 [View All], jamesonadmin, 11:22 PM, Nov-03-03, (0)  
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Nov-03-03, 11:25 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta 1"
In response to message #0
3 Q. I have just some background stuff
4 I would like to ask you, and I don't have
5 any intention of embarrassing you, but I know
6 from reading other interviews that in the
7 past you have taken some medication. I just
8 want to make a record on it. Are you
9 taking any medication now?
10 A. Yes, I am.
11 Q. What do you take?
12 A. Zoloft.
13 Q. And what's Zoloft?
14 A. Zoloft is for treatment of
15 posttraumatic stress disorder.
16 Q. Antidepressant type thing?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I am assuming, you look very
19 bright eyed and very alert, that it doesn't
20 affect your ability to comprehend what is
21 going on around you?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Okay. The other thing is, too, if
24 we ask you a question, whether it is from me
25 or Mr. Kane or Mr. Morrissey, and you are

1 not clear what we are asking you, instead of
2 trying to guess, just be very honest and
3 say, I don't have a clue what you are
4 saying, Mr. Levin, can you ask that in
5 English, because lawyers have a tendency to
6 talk like lawyers instead of people, and we
7 will try to talk like people here.
8 A. All right. Thank you.

So sweet - - but we already know it didn't last.

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Nov-03-03, 11:28 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta 1"
In response to message #1
9 Q. Where I would like to start is we
10 have heard that you and your husband have,
11 in effect, funded or conducted kind of a
12 parallel personal investigation into the death
13 of your daughter. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. What I would like you to do is
16 just kind of lay out, let's start with who
17 you have been in touch with, who has been
18 assisting you. Just list those people.
19 A. Mr. Ollie Gray, who is here in
20 the room, is working for us in the
21 investigation.
22 Q. Is there anyone else?
23 A. John, his assistant, who I think
24 you met earlier.
25 Q. Okay. And how long have you been

1 associated with Mr. Gray, or has he been
2 employed by you?
3 A. I don't remember exactly. Quite
4 some time.
5 Q. Can you give us an approximation?
6 Are we talking months?
7 A. Several months.
8 Q. Months?
9 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
10 Q. And before you started your
11 association with Mr. Gray, were there other
12 investigators that performed services for you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And who were they?
15 A. Ellis Armistead & Associates.
16 Q. And your association with Mr.
17 Armistead goes back to '97; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how long was he in your
20 employ?
21 A. Up until fairly recently.
22 Q. By fairly recently, we are
23 talking --
24 A. Probably --
25 Q. -- a couple of months when

1 Mr. Gray became in your employment?
2 A. Yes. Somewhere around that time.
3 Q. Does that correspond to when you
4 terminated your professional relationship with
5 Hal Haddon's firm and Pat Burke and Pat
6 Furman, or did Mr. Armistead work for you
7 after you terminated your professional
8 relationship with Mr. Haddon's law firm?
9 A. I am really fuzzy on all that.
10 I just -- John would probably know that
11 answer more clearly. He kind of --
12 Q. Why don't you give us your best
13 recollection.
14 A. What was the question again?
15 Q. When did you terminate your
16 relationship with the law firm of Hal Haddon,
17 and then we'll do Pat Burke and Pat Furman?
18 A. Well, it was after the grand jury
19 was concluded.
20 Q. Did Mr. Armistead still perform
21 services for you after you terminated your
22 professional relationship with those attorneys?
23 A. I don't know exactly.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. I don't know, you know, exactly

1 which dates, when it happened.
2 Q. Oh, I understand that. Let me
3 give you something that is really pertinent,
4 probably, to all the questions I am going to
5 ask you. I understand that we are talking
6 now about questions dealing with a period of
7 time three and a half years, going on four
8 shortly. I understand that you are not in
9 every situation going to be able to tell me
10 a day and sometimes not a month. And that
11 is okay. Do you understand that? Remember,
12 it is yes or no.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. But what I would like you
15 to do is, to the best of your recollection,
16 when I am asking you questions like this, if
17 you can give me spring of '99, fall of '96,
18 that type of thing, and that is fine.
19 MR. WOOD: If you know.
20 Q. (By Mr. Levin) If you know.
21 Obviously I don't want to put words in your
22 mouth.
23 A. I will try. I will try my best.
24 MR. WOOD: Let me help a little
25 bit because if you are looking for this

1 information, I think I am correct in stating
2 this, that Ellis Armistead was employed by
3 Hal Haddon and Bryan Morgan, not technically
4 employed by John and Patsy, but obviously
5 employed by their lawyers.
6 Mr. Gray's involvement predates
7 the time when those lawyers withdrew, no
8 longer representing John and Patsy. And Mr.
9 Armistead's resignation from the case, I
10 think, coincides in time with Mr. Morgan's
11 and Mr. Haddon's termination.
12 Q. (By Mr. Levin) So essentially
13 contemporaneous with the end of the grand
14 jury?
15 MR. WOOD: Yeah -- well, no.
16 Actually, the end, first part, somewhere
17 between mid to end of May actually they
18 continued to be involved.

Lin explained to the police what they should have known long before. I wonder how they thought this line of questioning could solve the mystery of who killed JonBenét.

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Nov-03-03, 11:31 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta 1"
In response to message #2
19 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mrs. Ramsey, are
20 there other professionals that you have
21 contacted or that were contacted at your
22 request? For example, forensic pathologists.
23 A. I believe so. I believe that we
24 had a group of experts who had put together
25 some information which we were hopeful could

1 be presented to the police department and
2 investigators last January.
3 Q. Who was in that group of experts?
4 Who do you remember?
5 A. I don't know all the names. I
6 just know they were, you know, they were
7 forensic type people.
8 Q. Why don't you tell me the names
9 you do recall? Do you remember a Dr. Sperry
10 from Georgia, Kris Sperry? He is a forensic
11 pathologist.
12 A. I believe that was one of the
13 names.
14 Q. Did you ever personally meet with
15 him?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was there anyone else that you
18 recall? And if you don't recall their
19 names, can you tell us what area of
20 expertise?
21 A. There again, that is kind of John
22 was sort of involved with that more than I.
23 I really don't. That is about all I know.
24 I just know that the meeting was declined.
25 Q. The meeting?

1 A. We had requested to meet and
2 present this information.
3 Q. And were you involved in that?
4 Did you directly contact the Boulder Police
5 Department or contact a member of the
6 prosecution team?
7 A. No, I did not personally. I
8 believe one of our lawyers sent a letter to
9 that effect saying we would like to meet and
10 present some findings, and it was not
11 accepted.
12 Q. One of the things that we are
13 very interested in is that, since you do
14 have and have had investigators working for
15 you on this case, and, as you refer to them
16 as forensic experts or group of experts I
17 believe is what you are calling them, what
18 have they presented to you that you think is
19 significant that would assist us in getting a
20 prosecuteable case against the killers of
21 your daughter?
22 A. They haven't presented anything to
23 me.
24 Q. Have they presented things to
25 John?

1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. If I understand you correctly, you
3 are saying that these people have been, and
4 I am assuming at a fairly large expense,
5 been retained by your family and that, that
6 you -- and obviously you have a great
7 interest in having -- in helping solve the
8 murder of your daughter; correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. But if I understood your response,
11 you are saying that you've never sat down to
12 talk to these people to discuss their
13 findings?
14 MR. WOOD: She said they haven't
15 presented anything to her in way of a
16 presentation. I don't think she said she
17 wasn't aware, generally, of their finding.

I know I was surprised the Ramseys were not inside all of it but different people deal with grief differently - - and the Ramseys didn't deal with it the same way some of us might have.

But the interesting thing here is that the RST tried to get LE to sit with their experts - to see what their investigators and experts thought was important - and K&C had not seen fit to make time for that. How disheartening.

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Nov-03-03, 11:30 PM (EST)
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3. "Tone sounds somewhat condescending....."
In response to message #0
   but the logic as explained by Levin, not unreasonable. She should have told them to cut the cr@p and get on with it. Beckner sounded the most sincere---but unfortunately, it sounds like he had to hide behind his prosecutors.

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Nov-03-03, 11:34 PM (EST)
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5. "Go Lin!"
In response to message #3
6 Q. (By Mr. Levin) What your
7 attorney told me is that there hasn't been a
8 formal presentation. Let's talk about
9 informal. Have you sat down personally and
10 talked to any of these people that were
11 retained in order to find out what they have
12 uncovered in this case?
13 A. I have not, no.
14 Q. Have you received secondhand
15 information concerning what information they
16 have concerning possible alternative suspects?
17 And that is an alternative to you and John,
18 obviously.
19 A. I don't remember them saying
20 anything about specific suspects.
21 Q. You have in the past suggested,
22 during interviews, possible suspects, people
23 that you in your mind think may have been
24 involved in the murder of your daughter;
25 correct?

1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Why don't you list those for us.
3 Who have you stated you believe at some
4 point in time was involved with the murder
5 of your daughter?
6 MR. WOOD: Now, that -- you have
7 those prior statements.
8 MR. LEVIN: Yes, I do.
9 MR. WOOD: Then I - excuse me.
10 MR. LEVIN: Pardon me, sir.
11 MR. WOOD: Then in all fairness,
12 you are asking her to simply repeat what
13 she's already told you, which is exactly what
14 we said we weren't going to do here today.
15 MR. LEVIN: That is correct. And
16 the follow-up questions will make it clear
17 why this is not repetitive.
18 MR. WOOD: But the problem is,
19 how in the world can she sit here and play
20 a memorization game with you about who she
21 may have discussed, when she discussed it.
22 I mean, if you have got her
23 statements, you know who she has named. And
24 she can't sit here and be expected to
25 remember each and every person because

1 sometimes you would ask, you know, if anybody
2 had a key and they would give you names.
3 Is that a possible suspect? I don't know
4 what the term necessarily means. But she
5 has given you those names, Bruce. You
6 have --
7 MR. LEVIN: I understand that.
8 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. If you
9 are here to get additional information, that
10 question is not necessary. You already have
11 that information.
12 MR. KANE: Let me follow up on
13 that.
14 MR. WOOD: Sure.
15 MR. KANE: Obviously the last
16 statements that we have are two years ago.
17 So maybe if we ask.
18 MR. WOOD: Ask if there is
19 anybody that she knows by name since when
20 she last talked with you all. That is
21 absolutely fair. I would, you know, let her
22 answer that, but to ask her who she's told
23 you about in the past would almost require
24 her to be familiar with every statement she
25 has given you all over four days or so.

1 And she hasn't prepared to do that today
2 because we weren't going to go into those
3 areas.
4 MR. KANE: Well, but also, I
5 think it is also relevant to ask what, what
6 information has subsequently been developed
7 about people that were named before. I
8 mean, two years is a long time.
9 MR. WOOD: Well, I mean, I would
10 think then you all ought to go straight -- I
11 am not telling you how to ask your
12 questions, but I would think if you have a
13 name and you want to know if she is aware
14 of any information developed since June of
15 1998, throw the name out there and ask her
16 have you learned anything that you know about
17 this person since June of '98. She will
18 answer that.
19 MR. LEVIN: That is fine.
20 MR. WOOD: I am not trying to be
21 difficult. I just don't want --
22 MR. LEVIN: I understand. What
23 I'll do --
24 MR. WOOD: - to put her in the
25 awkward position of trying to somehow

1 remembering what she said over four days two,
2 three years ago because I don't think she
3 could do that. She certainly didn't prepare
4 to do that today, and I wouldn't ask her to.
5 MR. LEVIN: No, and I, I
6 certainly, Mr. Wood, do not expect her to do
7 that. That's not where I was going. But
8 if it makes you more comfortable, I'll ask
9 the question another way.
10 MR. WOOD: Thank you very much.

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13618 posts
Nov-03-03, 11:40 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Go Lin!"
In response to message #5
11 Q. (By Mr. Levin) You've named
12 Priscilla White in the past as a possible
13 suspect. During the course of the last two
14 years, have you rejected that as a possible
15 suspect in the murder of your daughter, have
16 you rejected Priscilla White?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You've named Fleet White, I
19 believe, as a suspect. Same question, have
20 you rejected him as a possible suspect?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Bill McReynolds?
23 A. No.
24 Q. No, you have not rejected him?
25 A. No, I have not rejected him.

Doesn't sound to me like Patsy is accusing anyone or trying to throw anyone under the bus - - just answering questions.
1 Q. And I believe Chris Wolf you
2 also --
3 A. No, he has not been rejected.
4 Q. I assume then that that is a
5 function of the fact that you have not
6 received any significant information concerning
7 the murder of your child in the last two
8 years that differs from the information that
9 you received prior to your interviews with
10 representatives of the Boulder district
11 attorney's office?
12 MR. WOOD: Hold on before you
13 answer.
14 Do you understand that?
15 THE WITNESS: Not really.
16 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Okay. I'll
17 rephrase it for you. In June of 1998, the
18 individuals that I've named were, in your
19 mind, potential suspects in the murder of
20 your child; correct?
21 A. Uh-huh (affirmative). Correct.
22 Q. You tell us that today, in August
23 of the year 2000, those individuals remain
24 suspects. Correct?
25 A. Correct.

1 Q. I am assuming, based on that,
2 that you have not received, through your
3 investigators or through your experts, any
4 significant new information about the killing
5 which caused you to abandon those opinions or
6 suspicions?
7 MR. WOOD: Let me just caution
8 you. Because he tells you it is something
9 that he assumes, Patsy, I think what he
10 really wants to know is, why have you not
11 necessarily rejected these people in my own
12 mind. Do you follow me? I think that is
13 an easier question.
14 Isn't that what you are driving
15 at, Bruce?
16 MR. LEVIN: Well, not, no, it is
17 not.

I would have thought the same thing Lin thought. But the simple fact is, the Ramseys had not been told that any of those people had been cleared for good reason - - if they had, they would have said so! So we learn something.

18 MR. WOOD: For example, Chris
19 Wolf, why do you still think he is not in
20 your mind rejected as a suspect, isn't that
21 what you are trying to get her to answer?
22 Q. (By Mr. Levin) What I want to
23 know is, it would seem to me that if you
24 had people who are working on this case for
25 you to develop information concerning the

1 killing, that if they had developed anything
2 significant, that it might impact your belief
3 that Priscilla or Fleet or McReynolds or Wolf
4 was involved. Do you understand that so
5 far?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it a fair statement that you
8 have not received any significant information
9 concerning the murder of JonBenet in two
10 years?
11 MR. WOOD: About?
12 THE WITNESS: We have significant
13 information about the murder.
14 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Okay. Why don't
15 you tell us what is the significant
16 information that you have been provided in
17 the past two years. And again, I am not
18 going, you know, I'm not going to ask you
19 months and days, when did you find this out,
20 but I would like --
21 MR. WOOD: Specific information as
22 to specific people?
23 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Specific
24 information concerning the killing generally.
25 And you can block it out any way you want.

1 A. Well, I don't know a whole lot of
2 detail. John will, perhaps, be much better
3 to answer that.
4 What I know is that we know --
5 how do I want to say it, forensically,
6 pathologically, or whatever, how JonBenet
7 died.
8 Q. Why don't you explain what your
9 belief is concerning her death.
10 MR. WOOD: See, hold on a second.
11 You got one question she is trying to
12 answer, and now you -- are you withdrawing
13 that question?
14 MR. LEVIN: No, I am following it
15 up.
16 MR. WOOD: Well, but you haven't
17 let her finish the first answer, in fairness,
18 and you are throwing another question out.
19 THE WITNESS: I was going to tell
20 you the rest of what I know.
21 MR. WOOD: And if I go back and
22 look at this record, it looks like she's
23 completed her answer and then you've asked
24 her a new question and you've stopped her in
25 the middle. Do you want her to go back and

1 tell you generally what she's learned --
2 MR. LEVIN: Sure, you can list
3 them.
4 MR. WOOD: - for the last two
5 years and then you can move to the second
6 question?

Lin is right to make K&C give Patsy time to consider and fully answer the questions - - but they clearly didn't want to do that.

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Nov-03-03, 11:46 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Go Lin!"
In response to message #6
7 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Go ahead.
8 A. Well, I believe that from this
9 group of experts we know the sequence of the
10 way in which she died. I am not sure -- I
11 don't think I know. There may be other
12 things that that group had to present, but
13 that is the one thing that I can remember.
14 Otherwise, I think Mr. Gray has
15 turned over everything, any piece of anything
16 that he thinks is significant to the police
17 department, including just recently a pair of
18 Hi-Tec boots that were obtained from one of
19 the suspects. We don't know what has
20 happened with that since, and we would like
21 to know that.
22 Q. Anything else?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Why don't you explain to us your
25 understanding concerning the sequence of

1 events which led to your -- and I am talking
2 from a medical perspective, the sequence of
3 events that led to your daughter's death as
4 it was explained to you by your forensic
5 experts.
6 A. That she died of asphyxiation, and
7 the blow to her head was subsequent to that
8 act. And the reason that they know that is
9 because something to do with the very minute
10 presence or negligible presence of blood at
11 the fracture.
12 Q. Now, this belief that you have,
13 Mrs. Ramsey, was that a product of a
14 conversation that you had directly with Dr.
15 Sperry?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What is the source of your
18 information then?
19 A. I believe my attorney Pat Burke
20 explained that to me.
21 Q. Dr. Sperry is the source of that
22 information, though, through your lawyer; is
23 that your understanding?
24 MR. WOOD: If you know that.
25 THE WITNESS: I don't know that

1 for sure.
2 Q. (By Mr. Levin) What is your
3 belief?
4 MR. WOOD: If you have a belief,
5 Patsy.
6 THE WITNESS: Well, he was among
7 a group of experts. I mean, it was he and
8 several others is my understanding who, you
9 know, thoroughly looked at all of this. And
10 that was the gist of, in my layman's terms,
11 I am sure it is much more technical than
12 that, but --
13 MR. WOOD: And I think that,
14 Bruce, that Sperry was one of the people
15 that was offered to you all back in January
16 of 2000. I was not involved in that offer,
17 but I understood that they were willing to
18 have --
19 THE WITNESS: They had a complete
20 presentation ready for all of you all.
21 MR. WOOD: I think that offer
22 still stands.
23 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Are you aware of
24 what information he was in possession of,
25 that is, Dr. Sperry?

1 A. No, I am not.
2 MR. LEVIN: Are you, Mr. Wood?
3 Do you know what he had?
4 MR. WOOD: Well, I think I have
5 a general idea. I haven't sat here and
6 tried to come up with it in my mind's eye,
7 but again, my understanding is, I will check
8 this for you, but you all are welcome to
9 sit down and listen to him and talk with
10 him. He would be better able to tell you
11 that than me.

Now please explain this to me... the Ramseys offer to have all their experts sit with LE to share what they had - asked for it to happen! LE said no thanks... then this questioning - - what the hell is this going to accomplish? The Ramseys did not do the investigating - they weren't the experts and they didn't meet with all the experts who worked for them through the lawyers....

Instead of talking about tips and suspects and motives and alibis and ways to clear people - - they want to know just how Patsy thinks JonBenét died.

What good was that?

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13618 posts
Nov-03-03, 11:47 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Tone sounds somewhat condescending.."
In response to message #3
   >but the logic as explained by Levin, not unreasonable. She
>should have told them to cut the cr@p and get on with it.
>Beckner sounded the most sincere---but unfortunately, it
>sounds like he had to hide behind his prosecutors.

I think later you might change your mind about Beckner's sincerity. A sincere person stands up for .... well, that comes later.

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Nov-03-03, 11:55 PM (EST)
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9. "This is infuriating!"
In response to message #8
12 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Other than --
13 well, let's talk about the Hi-Tec boots.
14 You said you believe that a suspect had a
15 pair of Hi-Tec boots that were sent to us.
16 A. (Witness nodded head
17 affirmatively).
18 Q. Who was that?
19 A. His name is Helgother or Gogather.
20 Q. This is the man who committed
21 suicide?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How is it that your team, for
24 lack of a better word, how is it that your
25 team came into possession of those? Do you

1 know?
2 A. No, I do not.
3 Q. Have you been told or offered an
4 explanation?
5 A. Of how?
6 Q. Of how you got into possession of
7 a pair of boots that belonged to someone who
8 committed suicide several years ago.
9 A. I believe Mr. Gray obtained them.
10 Q. I don't believe that I have ever
11 heard you discuss him as a potential suspect
12 in this case. Can you tell us what
13 information you are in possession of that
14 causes you to hold that belief?
15 A. I understand that he committed
16 suicide on the 14th day of February '97. He
17 was in the possession of a stun gun, and we
18 believe, as best we can tell, that it was an
19 AirTaser stun gun, and that apparently
20 matches the markings that were found on
21 JonBenet's body. And he owned a pair of
22 Hi-Tec boots that appeared to be the same
23 size as the footprint found at the crime
24 scene.
25 Q. That information, I am assuming,

1 comes from the work that was done by Mr.
2 Gray? Is that the source of that? If I
3 am incorrect, tell me what the source is.
4 A. Yes, I think.
5 MR. LEVIN: Mitch or Mike, do you
6 want to do some more on their investigation?
7 MR. KANE: Sure.
8 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me just follow
9 up the last question. What was the name of
10 the suspect?
11 A. It is an unusual name. It is
12 Helgoth or Golgath.
13 MR. WOOD: I think you all asked
14 her about him in June of 1998 by name.
15 Michael Helgoth.
16 MR. LEVIN: For the Reporter, I
17 believe it's H-e-l-g-o-t-h.
18 THE WITNESS: Lin just said it is
19 Michael Helgoth.
20 Q. (By Mr. Kane) What else do you
21 know about Mr. Helgoth?
22 A. That is all, that is all I know.
23 Q. Did you ever hear that name
24 before?
25 A. No.

1 Q. It was not somebody who was known
2 to your family?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Besides Mr. Gray, do you have any
5 information, has anyone else given you any
6 information about him?
7 A. Not that I can think of, no.
8 Q. Besides the fact -- where did
9 you --
10 Did Mr. Gray tell you that he had
11 an AirTaser stun gun on him when he
12 committed suicide?
13 A. Yes. I believe there is a
14 photograph that he had.
15 Q. And was it Mr. Gray who told you
16 that he had Hi-Tec boots? Was he wearing
17 those? I am sorry, that is a double
18 question. Was it Mr. Gray who told you that
19 he had Hi-Tec boots?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And was he wearing them at the
22 time? Is that your understanding?
23 A. I don't know that.
24 Q. Outside of the fact that he
25 committed suicide, he had a pair of Hi-Tec

1 boots, and an AirTaser, is there any other
2 information you have that connects him to
3 this crime?
4 A. Not that I have, no.
5 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Have you seen
6 this photograph where Mr. Helgoth has the
7 stun gun? Have you actually seen that
8 photograph?
9 A. No, I don't believe so.
10 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Do you know how
11 Mr. Gray came into possession of these boots?
12 A. I don't know exactly, no.
13 MR. WOOD: I think that was
14 explained in a memo to Chief Beckner by Mr.
15 Gray that he sent to him in the last couple
16 of weeks.
17 THE WITNESS: You all have the
18 boots now.
19 MR. KANE: That wasn't my
20 question. I want to know what you know
21 about those.
22 Q. (By Mr. Kane) So you don't know
23 how he came into possession of those boots?
24 A. I think he said he might have
25 gotten them from a family member, or --

1 Q. When did you learn this?
2 A. Some time ago. A couple of
3 months ago.
4 Q. And was that the first time you
5 heard about Mr. Helgoth having Hi-Tec boots?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. And did you learn
8 about that in a personal conversation with
9 Mr. Gray or did you learn it indirectly
10 through somebody else?
11 A. I think I probably heard it from
12 John.
13 Q. Have you ever talked to Mr. Gray
14 about those Hi-Tec boots?
15 A. Yes.

Personally I think K&C could have spent their time better if they had investigated Helgoth aggressively and not wasted time badgering Patsy about things she did not know. The BPD knew about Helgoth and ignored the lead - then they were forced to deal with it - - and this is all they could ask?

Had they used their heads, they would have been interested in Helgoth's time at the airport - - or Helgoth's family's failing battles with the city planners while John was having no problems... was that a motive? Or how about the restraining order that kept him from the daughter of a previous girlfriend? (I believe it was a restraining order.)

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10. "RE: This is infuriating!"
In response to message #9
16 Q. You mentioned this group of
17 forensic experts, and I think that -- maybe
18 you have answered this question, but did you
19 ever meet Mr. Sperry, or Dr. Sperry, the
20 GBI, Dr. Kris Sperry?
21 A. I think Mr. Levin asked me that a
22 couple of times. No, I have not.
23 Q. Okay. Have you met with any of
24 the other forensic experts?
25 A. No.

1 Q. Have you ever asked any of these
2 to give you a briefing of what they
3 concluded?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Why not?
6 A. Well, I was hoping to be in this
7 meeting that we were going to have with you
8 folks in January, but that never took place.
9 Q. Now, I got a letter from an
10 attorney in Oregon about that. I can't
11 remember his name. Do you remember what his
12 name was?
13 MR. WOOD: Why don't you show us
14 the letter. If we can see it --
15 MR. KANE: No, I am asking if
16 she remembers the letter.
17 MR. WOOD: How would she know the
18 name of somebody who wrote you a letter from
19 Oregon?
20 MR. KANE: Because it was an
21 attorney hired by her and her husband.
22 MR. WOOD: Who was the attorney?
23 MR. KANE: Well, that's what I'm
24 asking --
25 MR. WOOD: I am not aware of an

1 attorney hired in Oregon. I could be wrong.
2 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Do you remember an
3 attorney hired who lived in Oregon who was
4 involved in setting up that meeting?
5 A. Oh, yes. John -- John something.
6 He is a colleague of Pat Burke's.
7 Q. Okay. Have you ever talked to
8 him yourself?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That attorney?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And it was your
13 understanding that you were going to be part
14 of that meeting between Dr. Sperry and the
15 Boulder law enforcement authorities?
16 A. I just presumed I would be. I
17 was hoping to. I don't know that it
18 actually came to the point where, you know,
19 you are in, you are not, you know.
20 Q. Dr. Sperry, is it your
21 recollection that Dr. Sperry was the one who
22 gave the opinion that, because of the lack
23 of blood, that would indicate that the
24 strangulation occurred before the blow to the
25 head?

1 A. I don't know who exactly gave
2 what information. My understanding was there
3 were several on this team of experts.
4 Q. You don't know who any of the
5 other people were?
6 A. No. I am sorry.
7 Q. You never spoke with any of the
8 other people?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you have a curiosity to speak
11 with them firsthand?
12 A. I felt that that time would come,
13 but they had work to do.
14 Q. I guess I don't understand why
15 you didn't speak with them before this
16 planned or suggested meeting with the Boulder
17 law enforcement authorities?
18 MR. WOOD: That is not a
19 question. That's just your problem with
20 understanding something. I have expert
21 witnesses in cases every day, Michael, that
22 never talk to my client. I give them the
23 information. I have clients that have lost
24 their daughter, please, sir. I have had
25 clients that have had children seriously

1 injured. I don't sit there and give them
2 the benefit of sitting down and talking with
3 the experts that I retain. No lawyer does
4 that, necessarily.
5 MR. KANE: Well, I am not asking
6 whether your lawyer did.
7 MR. WOOD: You are expressing a
8 problem understanding it. You are not asking
9 her.
10 MR. KANE: I will ask her.
11 MR. WOOD: She is not going to
12 be able to help you whether you're able to
13 understand something or not. You have to
14 work that out. All I am saying is that
15 from my perspective as a lawyer, it happens
16 every day.
17 MR. KANE: That is fine. And I
18 am not asking you, Mr. Wood. I am asking
19 Mrs. Ramsey.
20 MR. WOOD: I know that. In
21 fairness, it is nothing sinister to it.
22 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Mrs. Ramsey, why
23 didn't you ask to sit down and talk with
24 these experts?
25 MR. WOOD: I think she's already

1 told you that two or three different times,
2 Michael.
3 MR. KANE: No. She said that
4 she anticipated going --
5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Why didn't you ask
6 to speak with them before this meeting that
7 was trying to be set up in January?
8 A. I didn't feel like there was a
9 need for me to speak with them before until
10 they were finished with what their objective
11 was, and then we would all be presented the
12 material together.
13 Q. Okay. Now, and that meeting
14 never took place in January?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Have you met with them since?
17 A. No, I have not.
18 Q. Why not?
19 A. Because everything fell through.
20 Q. The meeting fell through, but what
21 about your own becoming aware of what these
22 experts had to say about the death of your
23 daughter, did you ever request to meet with
24 them for a briefing yourself?
25 A. I did not request a meeting, no.

How is this badgering going to help solve the murder? Truth is, the Ramseys distanced themselves from the investigation in some ways - - doesn't mean anything except they made some decisions that no one should have to deal with...

K&C had come to Atlanta to ask questions and share information and brainstorm - - but I don't see it happening - do you?

Midnight here - I am off to bed - - more tomorrow. Meanwhile, feel free to comment.

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1433 posts
Nov-04-03, 01:06 AM (EST)
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11. "That's why they hired the experts!"
In response to message #10
   LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-03 AT 01:09 AM (EST)
To sort it all out---why would Patsy want to constantly be reminded of all the details of the way JonBenet died? All they could do is hire the experts for the leads, and turn that over to the BPD to do something with it. It just goes to show the pigheadedness of LE which started with Ellers. If this was to be a mutual exchange of information, why couldn't the investigators answer some of the questions, and why couldn't they ask questions back. ie: Did you have DNA from Helgoth to compare with the DNA found on JBR? Did you test it? What were the results? Did you keep any blood samples, considering he was to be cremated?

What did they expect Patsy to do, as a private citizen without a background in criminal investigation?

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1433 posts
Nov-04-03, 01:38 AM (EST)
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12. "There's a difference in questioning betw"
In response to message #11
   Patsy and John. For example: Do you understand that? Do you
12 appreciate that we ask the question, we need
13 to have an absolutely honest answer, because
14 if we don't, if we don't get a -- if we
15 get a defensive answer, if we get an evasive
16 answer, all we are doing is playing into a
17 defense sometime down the road, some defense
18 attorney is going to use that to say my guy
19 didn't do it, John and Patsy Ramsey did it.
20 Do you understand that?

They didn't pull that with John. Mostly direct questions to him...no lectures on how to answer a question or talking to him like he's a child. MCP comes to mind---the problem all along when it came to Patsy. All these big (and in some cases somewhat scrawny) tough guys beating up on a woman.

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13618 posts
Nov-04-03, 07:45 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: There's a difference in questioning "
In response to message #12
   They wanted honest answers to dishonest questions. Something doesn't seem right there.

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Dec-04-03, 09:35 PM (EST)
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14. "Getting involved"
In response to message #13
   Some people might want to get involved, know every detail - - other people don't want to hear ever detail over and over again. Doesn't make them guilty of anything.

the BPD had the chance to talk to all the experts who worked on the case - they took a pass.

I hope Tom Bennett goes back and listens - and asks questions. There is so much to follow in this case, so much to learn.

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