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Conferences JonBenét Ramsey current threads Topic #29
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jamesonadmin
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Jan-23-02, 07:21 PM (EST)
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"The Suitcase"
 
   THE SUITCASE


Smit's argument: A hard-sided suitcase was discovered below the open window. The killer, figuring
it was safe to go out the way he came in, may have used it to boost himself up.

Ease of exit: Smit has gone in and out of the window with and without using a suitcase. "With a
suitcase, it's a lot easier."

Out of place: John Ramsey said the suitcase was not in that area of the basement before, suggesting
that someone moved it there. In addition, if the suitcase had been under the window for a long time,
dust and debris would have collected on it. But little was there.

Glass shard: A pea-size piece of glass was found on top of the suitcase, within what might be a
partial footprint. Smit surmises the glass may have come off the intruder's shoe as he stepped on the
suitcase to get out.

Response: Police have said privately that what looks like a footprint on the suitcase isn't a footprint.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/cr/cda/article_print/1,1250,DRMN_15_408302,00.html


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jamesonadmin
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Jan-30-02, 11:21 PM (EST)
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1. "LP's page on the suitcase"
In response to message #0
 
   http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/suitcase.html


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sooty
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Jan-31-02, 01:37 AM (EST)
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2. "I hope"
In response to message #1
 
   Fleet has since read a book on how NOT to screw up a crime scene. Is there anything the guy didnt mess with? We know he was upstairs when John talked to Burke and I dont think JB's bedroom was roped off at that stage {heeyyy somehow I doubt that would have stopped Fleet anyway}. I wonder if he snooped about in her room...moving...lifting...touching stuff? Fleet fancied himself as regular Hercule Piroit. Jameson, would Fleet have had an opportunity to go into JB's room BEFORE the first crime scene pics were taken? The guy was a loose cannon...a forensic detectives nightmare.


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jamesonadmin
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Jan-31-02, 10:10 AM (EST)
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3. "Fleet"
In response to message #2
 
   Sure, Fleet could have gone anywhere in that house before the first crime scene photos were taken. He was there minutes after the first cops were there, he went to the basement on his own, opened the door to the windowless room but didn't see anything in the complete darkness. There is no reason to think he could not have gone upstairs as well. I understood he searched the house on his own calling her name, so I think he DID go upstairs.

He had been in that house on many occasions - he had been in all the rooms at one time of another, I believe. So if his hair or prints were in there it wouldn't be hard to explain that - - but I think he was scared someone might twist innocent "evidence" into something damning.

As for him touching stuff - - it seems they all touched stuff - - the cops didn't protect it and the civilians just didn't understand. Fleet moved the suitcase, John closed the window. Priscilla was serving food and cleaning up the kitchen. Barbara Fernie was fussing around as well.

Their prints can be explained away - even their hair - - but if their DNA or handwwriting matches - - that is another story.


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LovelyPigeon
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Jan-31-02, 01:59 PM (EST)
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4. "Why was Fleet"
In response to message #3
 
   moving the suitcase to look for bits of glass?

If I thought I'd "found something" suspicious or worthy of regard, I feel sure I'd go tell a policeman and drag him over to it, if necessary.

But what about the suitcase and glass bits would make Fleet want to move the suitcase in the first place?


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BraveHeart
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Jan-31-02, 04:28 PM (EST)
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5. "Suitcase or stepping stone"
In response to message #4
 
   I doubt that the perp planned to squeeze the hard suitcase through the window well and middle window. It looks like it would be impossible based on the photos. A soft duffel bag might work for spiriting someone away but then a soft bag wouldn't be very good for stepping on if one wanted help to exit via the window.

If the suitcase had a purpose, of these two choices, I say it was for exiting, not for leaving with the body. There were two means of death, not accidental in nature. This indicates the killer didn't plan to take JonBenet with him.

Maybe the perp's original idea was not to haul her away in the suitcase but to leave her body in it. For some reason this didn't work out to his satisfaction. He then changed his mind and left her in the windowless room?


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Justice_seeker
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Jan-31-02, 05:29 PM (EST)
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6. "One thought I have on the suitcase"
In response to message #5
 
   The killer could have placed it under the window as a red herring.


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Maikai
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7. "A perp that hadn't thought things out"
In response to message #6
 
   very well, after he took JBR, may have thought the suitcase would work...why else would JBR have fibers from the interior on her? That's when things may have started unravelling...when he couldn't figure out how to get her out of the house.

I wonder if they did microscopic analysis on the top of the suitcase---and found any of the mold from the cellar floor on it? How the suitcase was taken in as evidence so material on it would be preserved?

I don't think the perp thought past taking JBR---and the alarm stickers may have thrown him off----he didn't know if the alarm was on or not.


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Ashley
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Jan-31-02, 06:06 PM (EST)
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8. "Maybe Fleet"
In response to message #7
 
   moved it??? Why? Don't know.

What I think is more important than the suitcase, is, JB's dna on the contents of the suitcase.

How did it get there?


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Ashley
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Jan-31-02, 06:07 PM (EST)
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9. "maikai"
In response to message #8
 
   Jsut saw your post. He must have had her in there, what other explanation could there be?


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Justice_seeker
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Jan-31-02, 06:13 PM (EST)
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10. "Maikai"
In response to message #9
 
   Yes, I had forgotten the fibers from the inside of the suitcase on JB's clothing. Ok, lol well he may have tried to get JB out of the house through that window but could fit the suitcase through the window- I am assuming he didn't take the time to check for fit before placing JB's body inside the suitcase? Another thought is that maybe he had JB laying on the comforter at one point?


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BraveHeart
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Jan-31-02, 06:16 PM (EST)
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11. "How the inside dna"
In response to message #10
 
   "Maybe the perp's original idea was not to haul her away in the suitcase but to leave her body in it." "For some reason this didn't work out to his satisfaction. He then changed his mind and left her in the windowless room?"


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Ashley
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Jan-31-02, 06:29 PM (EST)
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12. "Braveheart"
In response to message #11
 
   That's a good idea. Then it would have taken much longer to find her.

But I wonder why she was left in the middle of the floor and not hidden better than she was. John saw her almost immediately upon opening that door.

Ok-- here's my idea: Maybe she was in the suitcase and when Fleet went down there the first time--he removed her and dragged her to the spot John found her in. Then placed the suitcase near the window to make it look like someone stepped on it.

That would explain why her arms were above her head.

This scenario only works in my mind, if he's not the actual killer, but one of his Calif. friends is.


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docG
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Jan-31-02, 06:44 PM (EST)
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13. "Significance of the glass"
In response to message #12
 
   Lou Smit wants to see the glass on the suitcase as evidence an intruder placed his foot there. It's far more likely the glass simply dropped onto the suitcase from above -- when the window was broken. John has claimed HE broke the window months earlier. But he's also testified the suitcase wansn't under the window until the night of the murder. I think the glass was most likely broken the night of the murder as well. By John himself. Which is why some of it landed on the suitcase -- that he himself had placed there -- as part of a staging effort.

If someone wearing a HiTec boot had used that suitcase to boost himself up onto the window sill, there'd be a LOT more evidence than simply a piece of glass on the top. I think Smit came up with that unlikely theory when he realized there was only one alternative: John was lying about when the window had been broken. More smoke and mirrors. More misdirection from team Ramsey.


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Ashley
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Jan-31-02, 06:56 PM (EST)
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14. "No DocG"
In response to message #13
 
   If John was staging he wouldn't have said he broke the window.

Someone may have staged it though. But not John.


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Joyce
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Apr-19-02, 08:21 AM (EST)
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27. "I believe"
In response to message #12
 
  
>Ok-- here's my idea: Maybe she was
>in the suitcase and when Fleet
>went down there the first time--he
>removed her and dragged her to
>the spot John found her in.
>Then placed the suitcase near the
>window to make it look like
>someone stepped on it.
>That would explain why her arms were
>above her head.
>This scenario only works in my mind,
>if he's not the actual killer,
>but one of his Calif. friends
>is.

that evidence showed that she had been laying on the floor for a long time. Had she been in any other position, (and that means hanging up as well) evidence would have showed that she had been moved sometime after death because where the blood would pool in the body would've been non-consistant with her laying on the floor. As far as I know, it wasn't.


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Dusty
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Jan-31-02, 07:05 PM (EST)
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16. "No"
In response to message #1
 
   Fibers from contents inside the suitcase were NOT found on JonBenet. This is something Lou Smit made up.


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sooty
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Jan-31-02, 07:57 PM (EST)
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17. "Braveheart"
In response to message #16
 
   In the absence of a better explaination, I think the marks were made by a stungun, however, I wonder if the inside of the suitcase was checked for rivets that could have left marks on JB if she was stuffed in the suitcase very soon after death.

It would have been a good idea to hide the body in a suitcase {under their noses but unseen}. If he attempted that and failed, I have to wonder why he didnt put her inside a cupboard or the freezer rather than just on the floor in the winecellar?


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jamesonadmin
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Jan-31-02, 08:01 PM (EST)
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18. "The fibers from the suitcase. "
In response to message #17
 
   The FBI and CBI both did the tests - - one said the fibers were consistant with those on her body, the other says no.

Lou Smit does not manufacture evidence.

Take your misinformation elsewhere, Dusty.


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Justice_seeker
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20. "Lou did not make up anything!"
In response to message #16
 
   http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_408302,00.html

Inside the suitcase: A pillow sham, a comforter and a Dr. Seuss book were found inside the suitcase. These items belonged to John Andrew, John Ramsey's older son.
A CBI examiner issued a REPORT indicating fibers from the pillow sham and comforter were found on JonBenet's shirt, on her vaginal area, on the duct tape from her *hand*, on the hand ligature and inside the body bag.

FBI analysis: FBI examiners SAID the fibers on JonBenet came from a source other than the pillow sham and comforter--but none of them matched anything else in the house. If the FBI examiner is right, the killer had to take that piece of material out with him, SMIT SAID.
************

**I believe the word *hand* is a typo- the duct tape was from her mouth not her hand.
BUT it is very clear that Lou Smit did NOT make anything up. He disclosed the opposing statments of the CBI and FBI and none of those were HIS statements.


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birgitta
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Jan-31-02, 08:50 PM (EST)
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21. "they didn´t wanna hide the body..."
In response to message #20
 
   the killing was an sacrifice....that´s why they where not going to hide the body, they wanted the body seen to public....it was an religious, satanic sacrifice....that´s why a girl was taken but not a boy...they needed an virgin....but maybe they took her out of the house, killed her and brought her back...??


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LovelyPigeon
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Jan-31-02, 09:05 PM (EST)
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22. "Fibers in suitcase fabrics"
In response to message #21
 
   My take on the fibers of the dark-colored fabric inside the suitcase is that the CBI initial testing showed fibers from the suitcase to be consistent with some of the fibers found on JonBenét BUT subsequent fiber comparison by the FBI (which has more resources than the CBI) showed the fibers NOT to be a match.

But that's just my take...


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BraveHeart
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23. "One reason "
In response to message #22
 
   for placing her in the suitcase might be this:

The acclaimed play "ROPE" of 1929 detailed the story of Leopold and Loeb with one notable exception-the body was placed in a shipping trunk and left near the grieving family, unbeknownst to them.

In addition, the two boys were able to establish a false address in order to rent the get-away car by checking into a hotel with a suitcase full of books. The perp may have tried to place her in the suitcase to mimic this aspect of the L&L murder and failing that, threw her in the windowless room. The room worked pretty well in that two people, French and Fleet, both missed finding her there, and she wasn't discovered until 1:00 pm. Otherwise, when Fleet moved the suitcase, as he said he did early that morning, he would have noticed it weighing a lot more than normal-probably opened it, curious as he was.

The suitcase may have been a step up to the window to aid an emergency escape but I don't think it was ever expected to go out the window. It was too easy to go out the side door.

Now, I ask you, what would a kidnapper do with this suitcase at 2:00 am-dragged it down the alley and to his car parked two miles away? Burglars don't park at the house they are breaking into. Why would this perp be any different? It would not have been an easy carry; it would have attracted the attention of anyone still awake at that hour. Doesn't seem plausible to me.

Another reason, among many, that shows me he intended to kill her not kidnap her.


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jamesonadmin
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Jan-31-02, 10:40 PM (EST)
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24. "fibers"
In response to message #23
 
   There were fibers on her hand - - there is plenty of evidence that has not been shared - - that's some of it.


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Maikai
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25. "So...is it possible the perp"
In response to message #24
 
   was going to wrap JBR in the comforter to carry her out? And when whatever went wrong, went wrong.......he quickly used the sham/comforter to wipe off the evidence---and then quickly dumped them in the suitcase to get rid of them? Just like he got rid of JBR in the first handy place? What...he thought no one would find it?

This perp seems to be careful not to carry evidence on him---makes me wonder if he wasn't arrested before....knew the things that could convict him.


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jamesonadmin
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26. "At some point"
In response to message #25
 
   At some point that night, it seems that the killer opened that suitcase and at least handled the contents - - fibers were carried to the clothing and genitals of JonBenét. (Actually the FBI says the fibers match, the CBI isn't so sure.)

If that is the case, then fibers that match were on the killer and carried to wherever that person went.

If Patsy, there should be fibers where she was - - maybe on the chair in the sunroom?

The articles in the suitcase belonged to JAR - - he carried them to CO from GA but didn't want to use them in the dorm so stored them in that suitcase. Unless the killer handled the duvet then went to the sunroom, none of those fibers should have been there. Right?

Just thinking...


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LovelyPigeon
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28. "Back to the suitcase"
In response to message #0
 
   The FBI says that some of the fibers found on JBR were definitely from the comforter and sham? Jameson, did the RMN print it just the opposite of true?

There are some who have suggested that the pairs of marks on JonBenét's face and back were made when she was put into that suitcase found under the basement window. But the marks on her body were made while she was alive, not after she was dead. Livor mortis settling to her back and the right side of her face would have caused any marks made after death by lying atop of snaps or buckles (or anything else that poked into her skin) to appear WHITE, not dark.

Blood pooling (livor mortis) settles to the lowest area and the pooled blood in the body causes the skin to appear dark red, rust or purple color. Anything poking upward when the body was placed on the floor (or in a suitcase) would prevent the blood from pooling in that area, leaving a white area the shape and size of the "probe". The pairs of marks on JonBenét would have been white, not the dark reddish/rust color we see in the autopsy photographs.


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LovelyPigeon
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29. "What color?"
In response to message #28
 
   According to the search warrants, the suitcase is blue.

One blue suitcase (21PP)


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Maikai
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30. "No car?"
In response to message #29
 
   If the perp had a vehicle nearby, and he had planned the kidnapping in advance, he could have quicky bundled JBR up--maybe place her in a large canvas bag, and left the house and got into his vehicle.

This could indicate someone on foot---someone that panicked and killed her--and was going to remove her body from the house...but when he couldn't get her out of the window in the suitcase, he just tossed her in the cellar room. I don't think he originally wanted to leaved her body in the house. IMO, I think he reacted in panic.


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Guppy
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31. "Maikai"
In response to message #30
 
   > I don't think he originally wanted to leaved her body in the house. IMO, I think he reacted in panic

Ditto to that.

You know, I was reading a portion of PMPT (paperback) in which Schiller says the woman - Melody Stanton? - who originally heard the scream on the night of the murder was getting nervous and her statement was beginning to wobble. (Not a quote - paraphrasing.) Masked Man's later interview with her notwithstanding, I still think she heard a scream the night of the murder, and, I believe as far as the perp was concerned, that scream was not supposed to happen. I would imagine he thought that a stun gun would paralyze a victim, just as most of us did before getting an education in stun guns.

The scream would have been the source of the panic, just like most of us thought years ago. He dropped what he was doing and left, dragging the body out of sight in case someone came flying down the stairs to investigate. A quick, vicious head blow for insurance, and he was gone.


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LovelyPigeon
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32. "Using a suitcase"
In response to message #0
 
   to carry a small child away sounds like an idea, to me. No one would suspect anything was wrong if they saw a man carrying a suitcase on Christmas night.

People with suitcases at Christmas is very average, very so-what.


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jamesonadmin
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33. "which one"
In response to message #32
 
   Two labs issued reports on the fibers on her body and how they compared to the ones in the suitcase. I THINK it was the CBI said it was a likely match and the FBI said no - -- but I wouldn't swear on that - - could be I have them backwards. I will try to find that in my notes or ask someone.


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LovelyPigeon
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34. "According to the RMN:"
In response to message #33
 
   from the url in the first post

Inside the suitcase: A pillow sham, a comforter and a Dr. Seuss book were found inside the suitcase. These items belonged to John Andrew, John Ramsey's older son. A CBI examiner issued a report indicating fibers from the pillow sham and comforter were found on JonBenet's shirt, on her vaginal area, on the duct tape from her hand, on the hand ligature and inside the body bag. Smit wonders if the intruder, intending to kidnap JonBenet, tried to put her inside the suitcase so he wouldn't be seen carrying a small girl through the area, but she wouldn't fit or he couldn't boost himself and the suitcase out of the window.

FBI analysis: FBI examiners said the fibers on JonBenet came from a source other than the pillow sham and comforter -- but none of them matched anything else in the house. "If the FBI examiner is right, the killer had to take that piece of material out with him," Smit said.


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Dave
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Nov-17-02, 02:09 AM (EST)
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35. "Braveheart: Inside the Suitcase"
In response to message #0
 
   Braveheart: I also wonder if the perpetrator may have originally planned to merely leave the body inside the suitcase, but not remove it from the house in that manner. It might have been the largest thing he could find that would resemble "an adequate size attaché."

"May I suggest this suitcase? ... Surprise!"

Even though this part of his fantasy would have been unfulfilled, nobody recognizes his failure.


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Maikai
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36. "Yes, a suitcase is not"
In response to message #35
 
   obvious at all...whereas a young child wrapped in a blanket, being carried down the alley or street on a very cold night might get some attention. IMO, shows more lack of planning---or he would have brought in something to carry her out with, such as a large duffle bag.


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LovelyPigeon
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37. "Mayhaps"
In response to message #36
 
   the intruder, after he moved to suitcase to the window to use as a possible step to faciliate his exit, opened the suitcase and rummaged through it. Then he'd have fibers from it on his hands and maybe his clothes, which he'd then have transfered to JonBenét when he carried her to the basement.

Maybe she was never even near the suitcase...


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DonBradley
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717 posts
Nov-18-02, 11:20 AM (EST)
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38. "RE: The Suitcase"
In response to message #0
 
   I don't think there was ever any intent or any attempt to take JonBenet out of the home.

Whether this was because he had no vehicle or place nearby to which he could take her I do not know.

Certainly a suitcase is less alarming than a young girl being carried along in the dead of night, but each would be memorable if he had been seen by a neighbor and each would have attracted the interest of a passing police cruiser.

If the fiber evidence is interpreted as supporting a failed attempt to put her into the suitcase, I think the reason is more likely to have been that of concealment than that of ease of removal.

Perhaps there was a contemplation of the effect on the parents when they eventually opened that suitcase, perhaps not. Certainly it would be consistent with the tone of the note and the senseless waiting by the telephone.

Certainly the suitcase does seem to have been positioned so as to be able to function as a step and I also think that it was actually used as a step. So it is likely that both entry and exit was through the window. The scuff mark being made on the way in, and the suitcase-step being used on the way out.

Does anyone know if there was ever any inquiry into why this particular suitcase? From any other suitcases that might have been stored in the area? Size, weight, sturdiness?


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BraveHeart
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Nov-19-02, 08:47 AM (EST)
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39. "RE: Maybe..."
In response to message #38
 
   ...the comforter and pillow sham were placed in the suitcase AFTER contact with the fibers/JonBenet and the perp's intention was to use the suitcase to remove the items due to probable forensic evidence being on them.

Maybe the fibers came from an outfit he wore that night inside the house, maybe a santa suit? And maybe he rolled the suit up in the comforter and stuffed it into the suitcase.


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