Interview with Lin Wood Aired November 12, 2002 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM
AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LARRY KING, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, new revelations in the most
sensational child murder mystery of our time, the Jon Benet Ramsey case.
With never before seen police video tape.
PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER OF JON BENET: He didn't do it. I didn't do it. Bert
(ph) didn't do it.
KING: It was six years ago next month, Christmas night 1996. Beautiful Jon Benet murdered in the quiet picturesque Rocky Mountain
community of Boulder, Colorado. Her lifeless, strangled body found the next day in the family's basement. This gruesome crime
captured the public's imagination and wouldn't let go. But to this day not a single arrest. The lead police investigator think Jon
Benet's mother, Patsy Ramsey is the killer. The Ramseys say it was an intruder and they've issued heated denials, some of them on
this program.
STEVE THOMAS, BOULDER POLICE INVESTIGATOR: Are you saying you would have...
(CROSSTALK)
JOHN RAMSEY, FATHER OF JON BENET: You have assaulted my wife.
KING: The Ramseys remain under a cloud of suspicion. But the Boulder police have also been accused of badly botching the
investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, there were many mistakes.
KING: Tonight, after six years of endless questions and no answers, some new insight into the Jon Benet Ramsey case. John and
Patsy Ramsey's attorney, Lin Wood, shares with us some never before seen video of the Ramseys' police interviews and
depositions. An intense new look at the still unsolved mystery of Jon Benet Ramsey's murder. It's next on LARRY KING LIVE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Good evening. We have a very interesting show in store for you tonight. Our special guest is Lin Wood from Atlanta,
Georgia. He is the attorney, civil attorney, for John and Patsy Ramsey. He has been on this program before. We've got a bunch of
tapes we're going to be showing you tonight. Why, Lin? Why have you made all of this available to us? Give us a little genesis.
LIN WOOD, RAMSEYS ATTORNEY: Well, the Ramseys goal at this point is to try to get the investigation into the hands of new and
competent, skilled, experienced and fair investigators. The Boulder Police Department has demonstrated over the last six years that
it is not willing to take a thorough and fair look at the facts of this case.
They focused on the Ramseys. They've ignored other tips and leads. Some of these tapes clearly demonstrate the incompetence of
the investigation. While at the same time I think reveal the cooperation of the Ramseys have given.
KING: Tape turned over to you as the attorney hired under the...
WOOD: The tapes of the interrogations from June of 1998 and August of 2000 were provided to me without any stipulation that
they could not be used publicly. The other deposition tapes from civil litigation are the nonconfidential portions of those tapes.
The Ramseys' position is very simple. They want the public to have the full benefit of what has been done and what has not been
done in this investigation.
KING: Before we start seeing some of them, we're going to see a lot of clips tonight of these tapes in various circumstances. How
are they doing?
WOOD: Well, John's trying to get established in a new job. Patsy is, as you know, recovering from recent six month treatment,
chemotherapy treatment for a recurrence of cancer. They're amazing people, Larry. They are forward-looking in terms of trying to
survive the tragedies in their lives.
And I think they're strengthened by not only their knowledge of their innocence, but by the quality of their character. And the hope
that one day the murder of Jon Benet will be solved.
KING: Let's begin with the tapes we're going to be seeing tonight. You've given us access to these. The first one we're going to
show is the police interviewing the Ramseys. One interview took place in 1998 and the other in 2000, that was after they moved to
Atlanta. I guess we see Steve Thomas here.
WOOD: I think in the June 1998 tapes they had moved to Atlanta but you will not see Thomas. Those interrogations were conducted
by prosecutors with police review at night.
KING: I'll bring up Thomas in a moment who appeared on this program with them. Let's watch the first tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
J. RAMSEY: You hope that she didn't suffer. And if I let myself think beyond that, it's too difficult. But my hope is that she didn't
suffer. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's about 10:25. Do you want to take about a ten minute break? How's that sound? We'll come back to
this.
P. RAMSEY: I'm sorry.
J. RAMSEY: We were given Jon Benet, who in my mind it was a gift to us. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I miss her more than I can bear. I
couldn't do anything about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since that day, have you given any thought, even for a minute, considered that John may have been involved
in some way in Jon Benet's death?
P. RAMSEY: Absolutely no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not a second?
P. RAMSEY: Not a moment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never crossed your mind?
P. RAMSEY: Never crossed my mind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why?
P. RAMSEY: That man loved his children. Period, end of statement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you're a Christian, John. Would you swear to God you didn't do this?
J. RAMSEY: I swear to God I didn't do it. I swear to God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know anybody else? Could your wife have done it?
J. RAMSEY: Swear to God. What I told you is the absolute from the heart truth.
P. RAMSEY: He didn't do it. I didn't do it. Burke didn't do it. We love that child, OK? We're not involved. Read my lips. Let's find out
who is.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
KING: I never seen police ask, Do you swear to God you didn't do it?
WOOD: Well I've never, fortunately, been subjected to a police interrogation. I think it's important to note that what you have seen
there are small portions of three day interrogation. Patsy Ramsey was interrogated for three full days. John was interrogated for
three full days. That was after they had given eight hours of interviews back in April of '97.
And you've seen some emotion. You've seen, I think, though, individuals who are down to earth. They're honest. And they then
wanted to help this investigation. They still want to help it. They just want to have people deal with them that are fair and will know
what they're doing.
They did -- Lou Smith that you saw with John Ramsey. I know you know Lou Smith, he's been on your program. He's a great
homicide investigator. He spent a lot of time looking at all the evidence in this case. He is totally convinced that the Ramseys are
innocent.
KING: Steve Thomas, who was the lead investigator, wrote a book called "Jon Benet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation." His
theory was that Pasty committed the murder. In a dramatic moment on this shoe he accused her on this program. I'm sure you saw
that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS: Patsy, you could have been arrested in this case.
P. RAMSEY: I wish I had been and then we would have had a free and fair trial and you would have met your Waterloo, Mr.
Thomas.
THOMAS: Are you saying...
(CROSSTALK)
J. RAMSEY: You have assaulted my wife. You have assaulted her. You have called her a murderer. You have checked 73
suspects and said because Patsy's handwriting was the only one that couldn't be eliminated, therefore, she is a murderer. That is
absurd.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: There was subsequently a lawsuit over that book and it was settled, right?
WOOD: Steve Thomas settled it in the Ramseys' favor.
KING: Steve Thomas was deposed, was he not, over that book?
WOOD: He was deposed actually in another lawsuit that was filed against the Ramseys. We subpoenaed him. He fought the
subpoena, tried to avoid being deposed. Court ordered that he be deposed. So we had a chance to depose him for seven hours.
KING: And let's watch some portion of that. Steve Thomas being deposed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS: I believe there were discussions with the FBI, yes, about how to exert some public pressure on people who were not
cooperating, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were they also thinking that they might use the media to apply pressure so that there might be a possibility that
one of the parents might confession involvement in the crime? Was there ever discussed?
THOMAS: That may have been some motivation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe, from your recollections, that that was discussed?
THOMAS: I wouldn't disagree with it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who put the screen saver on at the Boulder Police Department that said, quote, "The Ramseys are the killers?"
THOMAS: I don't know who applied that to the computer screen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you think that was professional?
THOMAS: Sometimes police humor can be less than professional behind closed doors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well did you suggest that it might be better to take that off since you were in the process of investigation and
there were a number of suspects beyond the Ramseys?
THOMAS: I did not make that suggestion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Was he a weak witness?
WOOD: I thought he was a very weak witness. I think that we learned a long time ago that when you tell the truth, you look
somebody in the eye. Steve Thomas spent most of that deposition looking down at the table.
KING: But he did believe Patsy did it, right? I mean, that wasn't just conjecture?
WOOD: I think Steve Thomas formed that belief within days of his involvement in this case because he was not a homicide
detective, he was a narcotics detective, and he only knew one way to investigate, and that is to try to figure out who did it, and
then build a case against that person. That's the exact opposite of how you handle a homicide investigation.
KING: Right back with more of these fascinating details on this case, now about to be six years old.
We'll be right back with Lin Wood on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS: I'm suggesting that there was an explosive encounter, because at one point put the child in clothes, a red turtleneck, for
example, not the same clothing she was found in deceased, the following day. I think something happened in that bathroom.
KING: All right. Why would it lead then to garroting and hitting on the head: What would lead to that?
THOMAS: I don't know. What can you imagine would led to garroting or hitting on the head?
P. RAMSEY: What can you imagine? I can't imagine. I want to you look at me and tell me what you think happened.
THOMAS: Actually, I'll look you right in the eye. I think you're good for this. I think that's what the evidence suggests.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back with Lin Wood. Now, police say that they had several key pieces of evidence against the Ramseys. We should
point out no charges have ever been brought in this case against anyone, right?
WOOD: Against anyone.
KING: Patsy's clothing fibers -- the biggest one they claim is the fibers from her jacket. They say from what she was wearing were
found in the paint tray where the garot used to strangle Jon Benet was found. Fibers were also found on Jon Benet's body, and
the duct tape Jon Benet's mouth. And what we are going to show now is the tape of her responding to that charge, right?
Here is Jon Benet's mother, Patsy, responding to that charge about the evidence of the fibers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have found, and I want you to help us, maybe you can offer an explanation. We have found fibers in the
paint tray that appear to come off of the coat in the photograph we showed you.
P. RAMSEY: In the paint tray?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
P. RAMSEY: What's a paint...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... ask his question. What's your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll rephrase the question, maybe this will satisfy -- Mrs. Ramsey, I have no evidence from any scientist to
suggest that those fibers are from any source other than your red jacket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on. What other sources did they test? How many other red jackets and red and black jackets did they
test? That's an unfair question on the face of it, Bruce. Did they test anything other than that red and black jacket? I mean, they
can't have information that it could come from another source if they didn't test another source for gosh sakes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: And how, Lin were they -- would you go out and test every red jacket ever made?
WOOD: No, no -- but let me make a couple of points. Number one, police interrogations do not have to be fair, and they don't have to
be truthful. So when they ask a question and say they've got evidence that says that fibers from her jacket appear to be consistent
with fibers found in the paint tray, that may or may not be true.
I know they asked John Ramsey about fibers during his interrogation, and I know for a fact that the information was not true in
terms of the location of those fibers.
Patsy was wearing a red and black and gray jacket, as I recall, and there were red fibers alleged to have been found on the duct
tape, and on Jon Benet's body and in the paint tray.
That's what they say.
There were no black fibers. There were no gray fibers. We know that there are brown fibers that have never been sourced. We
know that there are blue fibers that have never been sourced.
So the fiber evidence is, I think, extremely weak and besides, she lived in the home. She put Jon Benet to bed that night. There's
any one of many innocent explanations for why the fibers might be consistent with something Patsy was wearing.
KING: Now concerning John's clothing fibers. They say there's evidence of fibers from John's clothing on Jon Benet. Here is the
father's response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Ramsey, it is our belief, based on forensic testing that there are hairs that are associated -- that the
source is the collared black shirt that you sent to us that are found in your daughter's underpants, and I want to refute...
J. RAMSEY: Bull (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I don't believe that. I don't buy it. If you're trying to disgrace my relationship with my
daughter...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Ramsey, I'm not trying to...
J. RAMSEY: Well, I don't believe it. That's ridiculous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think you are too, Bruce. Let's move on. Why don't you move on.
J. RAMSEY: That's disgusting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I am not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, you are.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's move to something else, maybe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's move to another topic.
J. RAMSEY: The question is, how did fibers of your shirt get in your daughter's underwear? I say that is not possible. I don't believe
it. That's ridiculous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: So you're saying police invent things to try to get respondents to respond?
WOOD: That was invented. We know that there were black fibers found, they claim, but there were no black fibers found in the
areas of Jon Benet's underwear, as claimed in that question. The Boulder Police Department did not even ask for the Ramseys to
provide the department with the clothes they were wearing the night of Jon Benet's murder for over one year. They couldn't even
remember what they had worn. They had to go back and look at photographs to try and reconstruct what they wore that night.
KING: And now, one other thing in this segment, the pineapple. There was pineapple found in Jon Benet's stomach in the autopsy.
Patsy Ramsey said she didn't feed Jon Benet any pineapple that night, but pineapple was found in Jon Benet's stomach. Police say
that Patsy's fingerprints were found on the bowl of pineapple. Police say they can't be hers. Police say she is lying about this, then
she's probably lying about other things. Here is Patsy's response to those accusations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were the remains of pineapple in Jon Benet's system.
P. RAMSEY: I have heard that, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So this isn't a shock to you?
P. RAMSEY: No it is not, no. But I did not do this. If she ate that, somebody put that there. I don't know when she would have eaten
it. She was sound asleep when we got home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And what if those fingerprints belong to one of the two of you?
P. RAMSEY: Well, I don't know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, now wait a minute. You started that line... P. RAMSEY: I didn't put the bowl there, OK? I did not put the
bowl there. I would not do this setup.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, but let's go back to your line of reasoning here. Now, talk to me.
P. RAMSEY: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at me.
P. RAMSEY: If they're not yours and they're not John's, then they would be somebody else's.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
I mean, there was somebody in our home that night besides my husband, my son, my daughter and myself that killed our daughter.
You know? Could they have fed Jon Benet pineapple?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Did that answer the pineapple question?
WOOD: I have to tell you, the pineapple question is still a confusing one for me because the logic of the police escapes me.
They claim that there was pineapple or a substance like pineapple found in Jon Benet's intestinal tract upon autopsy. The digestive
time for pineapple is so varied that I don't think anyone could pinpoint with any accuracy when she might have eaten that
substance, if it was pineapple.
There were any number of victims' assistants and individuals at the Ramsey house the morning when they thought this was a
kidnapping. Whether that bowl was placed there then or whether it was placed there earlier. I don't think Patsy Ramsey has ever
denied that it was not her fingerprint. I think she's just made the consistent point from Day One, just as John has, when they got
home that night, Jon Benet was asleep. They took her from the car, they put her to bed. They did not feed her pineapple that night.
KING: More when we come back. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
P. RAMSEY: What we want to let everyone know is that this $100,000 reward is for information leading to the arrest and conviction
of the killer of our daughter. We feel like there are at least two people on the face of this Earth that know who did this and that is
the killer and someone that that person may have confided in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) (SINGING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back with Lin Wood, the attorney for the Ramseys, whose desire it is to get a broader, fuller, better investigation,
right?
WOOD: I'd like to get actually a legitimate investigation. We've never had one.
KING: Because the cloud still hangs over them, right? And always will until...
WOOD: Look, there's no public will in Colorado at the moment for public officials to spend the money to reinvestigate the Jon Benet
Ramsey case so the Ramseys twist slowly in the wind in Atlanta, Georgia. That may be a satisfactory solution to the taxpayers of
Colorado and to the politicians of Colorado, but it is not a satisfactory resolution for John and Patsy Ramsey. They want to know
who killed their daughter.
KING: Enter Lou Smit, a veteran investigator hired by the Boulder police to help out with the investigation. Smit eventually resigned
out of frustration, now works on his own on this case and he believes an intruder committed the crime.
Here was Lou Smit appearing on this program.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOU SMIT, INVESTIGATOR: I believe that there is evidence pointing toward an intruder, strong credible evidence. I believe that
sometime during December 25, 1996, someone got into the house of John and Patsy Ramsey. I believe there is some evidence to
suggest strongly that he may have come in through a basement window.
KING: And then I remember your telling me about a suitcase.
SMIT: The position of that suitcase when it was first observed there, by Fleet White, was that it was directly against the wall
directly underneath that open window. There is evidence on top of that suit case, a very small, tiny pea sized piece of glass which
could have come off the shoe of the intruder. There's also what appears to be a disturbance on the top of that suitcase, as if
someone may have stood on it at some particular point. The intruder had to come in through the window.
KING: Used the suitcase to get out.
SMIT: Yes. It would make it much easier to get out of that basement.
KING: OK. So then you have a theory as well dealing with the bed. Which is?
SMIT: I believe that the killer did take Jon Benet from her bed.
KING: Right there.
SMIT: And brought her down to the deepest, farthest dirtiest corner of that basement and did fashion a garot there that was used
to strangle her. And that he did also stun gun her, very possibly at that location. And then he also brutally hit her on the head with a
blunt object.
KING: Why is the bed significant to you?
SMIT: They show a bed that is somewhat messy, but it don't look like there's been any violence in that room. The various tables in
that room and the other bed don't show any signs of violence occurring in that room.
I don't know what was in the mind of the killer. All I know is that the killer fantasized making this garot in his mind. He fantasized
putting this around her next. He had to put a handle on this garot. He had put a noose on this garot. He had to put it around Jon
Benet's neck, probably while she was still bound and had the Duct tape on her mouth.
KING: Do you think she was targeted? that it was someone who knew these people? Who knew -- obviously knew they had
money?
SMIT: Yes. I think that is the motive for the intruder. The Ramseys were very highly visible prior to the murder. John Ramsey was
the head of this large access graphics company. He was known as "Billion Dollar John."
KING: So would you say then if it ever came that the Ramseys were involved, you'd be shocked?
SMIT: If the Ramseys were involved, I would be very shocked.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: There was a time, Lin Wood, when people thought that he, Lou Smit, was working for the Ramseys. He never worked for the
Ramseys.
WOOD: Never worked for the Ramseys. Never received a dime form the Ramseys. He worked for the Boulder police department
and he's been working the case on his own since then.
And Lou Smit, you know, 32 years homicide experience. This is the kind of homicide investigator that needs to be looking at this
case from A to Z. And that means R, too. The Ramseys understand. When they call for new investigation, they will be
reinvestigated, too. They're prepared for that to happen.
KING: Here now is John Ramsey responding to police questioning about the intruder theory. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If ever there were going to be an intruder on trial, the defense is going to be that you did
it. Remember that.
J. RAMSEY: I remember that. But I'm not here to prove my innocence. I'm here to find the killer of my daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)