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Conferences Deposition discussion Topic #63
Reading Topic #63
jamesonadmin
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Nov-07-03, 00:09 AM (EST)
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"Patsy in Atlanta - 12 - brown fibers?"
 
   179
1 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mrs. Ramsey, you,
2 you had cut evergreens, I believe, in a
3 bucket of water in your house during the
4 holidays. Do you recall that during
5 Christmas of '96, like boughs or --
6 A. Greenery, yeah, I decorate with
7 greenery.
8 Q. Greenery. Did you have garden
9 gloves that you wore when you were, when you
10 were -- I assume, you tell me if I am
11 wrong, I assume that you cut them off some
12 of your Evergreen trees outside?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Do you wear gloves when you do
15 that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And I know that you -- there were
18 some flower beds I believe that you
19 occasionally worked with, that you worked on
20 that were on, is it, the south side of the
21 house?
22 A. The rose, I think the roses.
23 Q. Did you wear gardening gloves when
24 you worked out in the yard?
25 A. Not usually.

180
1 Q. Did you own gardening gloves?
2 A. I don't think so, no.
3 Q. Do you recall ever seeing in your
4 house brown kind of work gloves, cotton?
5 A. Brown cotton? John had -- I
6 don't remember brown work gloves.
7 Q. Can you picture what I am talking
8 about?
9 MR. WOOD: Do you have a photo
10 maybe or something?
11 MR. LEVIN: No, I, we, we don't.
12 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Have you ever
13 seen, they are kind of a --
14 MR. WOOD: No, I don't think so.
15 You got to do better than that. You can
16 conjure up a zillion different brown work
17 gloves.
18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Cotton brown work
19 gloves.
20 A. Cotton brown work gloves?
21 Q. Costs you about three bucks in
22 the grocery store. I am not creating any
23 images for you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay.

181
1 MR. WOOD: Me either.
2 MR. LEVIN: We will just leave
3 that.
4 CHIEF BECKNER: Before we go too
5 far, for clarification for me, when you were
6 asked about wearing garden gloves, you said
7 not usually, I believe. Does that mean
8 sometimes you would?
9 THE WITNESS: I don't remember
10 doing that. I mean, I do wear them now
11 because now I am wearing these funny
12 fingernails, I don't want to get them messed
13 up, but I don't think I was doing it then.
14 So I don't, I don't ever remember -- I am
15 not a big gardener, so I didn't have all of
16 the trappings, you know, all of that stuff.
17 So I do not remember having any gardening
18 gloves.
19 Q. (By Mr. Kane) You started to say
20 that John had. John had what?
21 MR. WOOD: Let's see exactly what
22 she said.
23 MR. KANE: Lin, she said John had
24 30 seconds ago. What did John have?
25 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. The

182
1 question was, do you recall ever seeing in
2 your house brown kind of work gloves, cotton,
3 and you went brown cotton, and you said John
4 had, and you said I don't remember brown.
5 All I want to do is put it in the context
6 of what she said. Do you remember saying
7 that?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 MR. WOOD: Now, Mr. Kane, go
10 right ahead.
11 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Now that you've
12 had time to think about it for a minute,
13 what did John have?
14 A. What kind of gloves did he have?
15 Q. What were you about to say? You
16 said John had.
17 A. John had ski gloves.
18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) In addition to
19 his ski gloves, Mrs. Ramsey, do you recall
20 John having any kind of work gloves that he
21 might have kept in the car if he had to
22 change a tire or anything like that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Just for clarification, for the
25 record, when you say no, does that mean no,

183
1 you don't recall whether he did or didn't or
2 no, he did not own any work gloves?
3 A. I don't recall that he did. You
4 will have to ask him if he did.
5 Q. Fair enough. Thank you.
6 Mr. Morrissey?
7 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) What color
8 were the ski gloves that you were thinking
9 about?
10 A. It seems to me like they were
11 black. I can't be sure, but I think they
12 were black. They were the puffy kind.

They were looking for brown work gloves because there are unmatched brown fibers on the tape and elsewhere - - they never could link them to the Ramseys.

Someone out there may suspect the killer - maybe they have the gloves somewhere - - if they do, I hope they put the gloves in a brown paper bag, tape it up and send it to the authorities.


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Patsy in Atlanta - 12 - brown fibers? [View All], jamesonadmin, 00:09 AM, Nov-07-03, (0)  
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jamesonadmin
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Nov-07-03, 11:04 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta - 12 - brown fibers"
In response to message #0
 
   no comments?


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Dave
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Nov-07-03, 02:41 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta - 12 - brown fibers"
In response to message #1
 
   Jams,

Were you expecting something in particular, or just comments in general?

I almost posted something, then decided not to. But since you asked!

I actually have used those "grocery store" gloves myself, but only for running during the winter. I've had several pairs of them. I consider them to be terrible gloves for doing anything other than keeping my hands warm while running. The fingertips, in particular (on the ones that I had) were sewn such that it was hard to pick up anything. So I was surprised --- quite surprised --- to learn that this type of glove would be used for committing a crime or for covering one up, as is being suggested here. They are good for running, however, because unlike many other gloves, you can wash them and get the sweat out of them. When you do that, they really shrink down, by the way, but they do fit more snugly. Once again, I'm very surprised to see that this type of glove was thought to have been used. I can't imagine it myself based on my own experience. I'd use latex or some other type of glove that would allow me to manipulate things better plus not shed fibers.

Another thing that surprises me is that these investigators seem to think that not only did either John or Patsy murder JonBenét, but that they then went and put on these horrible gloves to stage the scene. ??? After accidentally or purposefully killing their daughter, did they stop to get out their crime manual to see what the next step in covering up a crime is? "Be sure to wear gloves. We recommend those grocery-store type of cheap, cotton gloves."

I can't really imagine either John or Patsy owning this type of glove, but I have --- so perhaps. The more likely owner would be someone without a home, I would think --- someone who doesn't own a pen or paper or much of anything?


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-07-03, 10:47 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta - 12 - brown fibers"
In response to message #2
 
   Poor people often buy cheap gloves because - - that's what they can afford.

Those were cheap gloves.

I wonder what the homeless people in the alley and church wore.


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Rainsong
Member since Jul-4-03
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Nov-07-03, 11:10 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta - 12 - brown fibers"
In response to message #3
 
   Can't imagine trying to do any kind of work with gloves. I detest them for gardening even though I own several pair. I keep trying to find a pair that allows me to keep my hands clean and still allow me to get the work done and my husband only wears work gloves if he has to tackle outside work in cold weather.

Rainsong


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Margoo
Member since Nov-29-02
1402 posts
Nov-08-03, 03:48 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta - 12 - brown fibers"
In response to message #4
 
   Somehow I see a myth being born - that there were 12 brown fibers found on the body.


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Slapfish
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Nov-08-03, 08:27 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta - 12 - brown fibers"
In response to message #5
 
   >Somehow I see a myth being born - that there were 12
>brown fibers found on the body.

LMAO-good one Margoo

I also thought it strange that this type of glove would be used. It is hard to get a strong grip with cloth gloves. I can't imagine pulling on a cord or tying a knot with gloves like these. Leather or laytex would be better.

Obviously the Ramseys would not don gloves to commit a crime in their own home. If it is proved that these brown fibers match this type of glove, then it is most certainly evidence of an intruder.


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Ashley
Member since Jul-4-03
347 posts
Nov-08-03, 10:53 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta - 12 - brown fibers"
In response to message #6
 
   Why weren't they concerned that the gloves might belong to someone like...hmmmmgee, let me think here: The Landscaper?

Did they ask him what kind of gloves he owned? It was cold there might he have used them in the morning to trim the rose bushes. He did have a converstion with JB about rose bushes and how they have thorns to protect themselves from being "eaten"!

Weird thing to tell a child, imo.

But seriously, did they only question the Ramsey's on these things? Why, would they think Patsy would use garndening gloves to kill her child. How stupid are these people, anyway?


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one_eyed Jack
Member since May-7-03
592 posts
Nov-08-03, 11:48 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta - 12 - brown fibers"
In response to message #7
 
   I know one "profession" that uses the cheap, brown, cotton gloves. I had the great misfortune to know a group of burglars years ago, and that is exactly what they wore.


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Ashley
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Nov-08-03, 01:43 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta - 12 - brown fibers"
In response to message #8
 
   Landscapers also use gloves.

What I want to know is did they find brown fibers on Patsy bucket or greenery? If not why did they even ask her about it.

Why weren't they checking for those kind of fibers on the rose bushes or other places in the Ramsey yard?

Why would they not suspect a MALE who worked around the Ramsey home and had NO alibi?

Is the hair they found the same color as his is it consistent with his. Why not take everyone who was around JB at the time of her killing all household employees and inner and outer circle of people that she had recent contact with?


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clem
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Nov-08-03, 01:52 PM (EST)
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10. "cheap brown cotton gloves"
In response to message #8
 
   I've picked many a root with those gloves, worn holes in many a pair. They are my choice for yard work, what little I do, and I like the fit after they've been washed. I like them much better than the cheap cotton ones with dots all over them. Most likely there is a pair somewhere around here, however I could not go an put my hands on them now. I think it is important to remember that the Ramseys were drugged (medicated heavily, whatever) soon after the 26th if not on the 26th for who knows how long. I don't see how either could really accurately remember much of anything detailed.


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Dave
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Nov-08-03, 03:14 PM (EST)
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11. "Jams - One-eyed Jack"
In response to message #10
 
   Jams,

They might just want to try to test for DNA on the cotton fibers, if they haven't already. When I use this type of glove for running, they
server to absorb sweat off my face and let's just say to keep my face clean. There may be sweat, saliva, mucous, or other fluids on them that can be evaluated. This may not have occurred to the investigators because other types of gloves wouldn't necessarily be such good sources. These gloves are very absorptive. If you so much as touch your face, they'll absorb something.

--------------------------------

One-eyed Jack,

Did they catch these burglars? If so, can you speculate as to why they wore that type of glove? I just can't imagine it unless I couldn't afford any others. They would be easy to steal, however, from a grocery store. And they do expand quite a bit before they're washed --- meaning that someone with large hands can easily find and steal something that fits.


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one_eyed Jack
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Nov-08-03, 11:30 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Jams - One-eyed Jack"
In response to message #11
 
   LAST EDITED ON Nov-08-03 AT 11:56 PM (EST)
 
>One-eyed Jack,

>Did they catch these burglars? If so, can you speculate as
>to why they wore that type of glove? I just can't imagine
>it unless I couldn't afford any others. They would be easy
>to steal, however, from a grocery store. And they do expand
>quite a bit before they're washed --- meaning that someone
>with large hands can easily find and steal something that
>fits.

YES, they did catch them!

If I recall correctly, they bought the gloves (and they did actually buy them) because they were lightweight, and they weren't identifiable. They would buy a new pair almost every time. They must have worked fine for their purposes because they stuck with the same kind and never complained.

These guys made quite a bit of money doing what they did, and they knew all about residential and business burglar alarms.

edited to add: Oh, they also used them because they were darker than a lot of the other gloves. They always wore dark clothing. I have been confused for quite awhile about the brown, cotton fibers found at the crime scene and speculated to be from gloves. I understood the fibers to be identified as light brown, not the dark brown gloves I believe we are talking about.


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Dave
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Nov-09-03, 03:11 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Jams - One-eyed Jack"
In response to message #12
 
   One-eyed Jack

Thanks for your response. Yes, the ones I used were dark, very dark, which would definitely be an advantage. If they're talking about light brown fibers, I've seen some light brown work gloves like that, but I seriously doubt that these are $3 in the grocery store. Do you suppose that maybe these guys don't know what they're talking about?? :-)


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one_eyed Jack
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Nov-09-03, 03:39 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Jams - One-eyed Jack"
In response to message #13
 
   >One-eyed Jack

>Thanks for your response. Yes, the ones I used were dark,
>very dark, which would definitely be an advantage. If
>they're talking about light brown fibers, I've seen some
>light brown work gloves like that, but I seriously doubt
>that these are $3 in the grocery store. Do you suppose that
>maybe these guys don't know what they're talking about?? :-)

I'm really not sure. The dark, brown gloves are the ones I keep thinking were what was actually used in the crime, but I have no real substantiation of that. I probably just think that because of the losers I knew and what they wore. It doesn't make sense to me to be wearing light colored gloves that flash in the dark to commit a crime, and the only light brown gloves I've seen are the leather or canvas gloves. The canvas gloves are made of cotton, also. If they really are light brown gloves, perhaps that could help us narrow down the focus? Just a quick search leaves me with the impression they are used in industrial fields. With the combination of black duct tape and light brown gloves, maybe we could narrow down an occupation, at least. Is there any reason to believe that the gloves worn in the crime have to the 3.00 gloves found easily at the store?


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Dave
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Nov-09-03, 07:35 PM (EST)
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15. "One-eyed Jack"
In response to message #14
 
   One-eyed Jack,

"Is there any reason to believe that the gloves worn in the crime have to the 3.00 gloves found easily at the store?"

Probably not. It's just what the investigators suggested was the case, or at least that's what I understood them to imply. The way they were talking there, I thought for sure that they had a fiber that they knew was from that type of glove. On the other hand, they think they have the killer there right in front of them, so they don't seem to be very good at "investigating" anything. I guess I should know better, eh?


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