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Conferences Deposition discussion Topic #48
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jamesonadmin
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May-17-03, 04:40 PM (EST)
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"Thomas depo 30 - bed sheets"
 
   VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is 3:05. We're back on the record.

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, were the sheets on JonBenet's bed collected on the 26th of
December for forensic testing?

A. I was told they were.

Q. And what tests were performed on them?

A. I don't know. Detective Trujillo had that assignment.

Q. Was there any test that you're aware of that indicated the presence of urine on those sheets?

A. Detective Trujillo imparted to me that he had learned or believed that there was not a
presumptive test for urine according to the CBI.

Q. Were they wet?

A. When?

Q. That morning. Did --

A. Unknown.

Q. -- you ask? Did you ask any of the officers there, hey, by the way, were the sheets on
JonBenet's bed wet? Did you ask that question of anybody?

A. I did not.

Q. Do you know if anybody else did?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know the answer to whether they were wet or not?

A. I have been told that they were urine stained.

Q. Who told you they were urine stained?

A. Detective Trujillo, Detective Wickman.

Q. Have you seen the photographs of the sheets?

A. It depends on which photographs you're talking about.

Q. Of her sheets, of the bed.

MR. DIAMOND: Have you seen any.

A. Crime scene photographs, yes.

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did they say they could smell urine?

A. I have been told that CBI says, yes, those sheets which are still in evidence smell urine stained.

Q. And did they stain because -- well, you don't have kids, but I don't know if you've ever had a
bed-wetting accident but when you have children one day you'll probably know this to be true, urine
stained sheets, were these stained, have you seen them?

A. I have not seen the sheets.

Q. I mean, you write -- you have written in your book that JonBenet wet the bed. What I want to
know is what evidence supports that statement that you are aware of and that you found out about?

A. Urine stained sheets, the plastic bed fitting and the diapers halfway out of the cabinet.

Q. The diapers had urine on them?

A. That's not what I said.

Q. Well, I'm -- diaper halfway out of the cabinet shows that the sheets were wet or that she wet the
bed?

A. No, I think you asked me what led me to believe that she may have wet the bed.

Q. Well, I mean it seems to me that the answer is pretty simple. Did you ever go look at the
sheets? They were there for your viewing if you wanted to, weren't they?

A. No, they were at CBI.

Q. You could have picked up the phone and asked somebody at CBI about the test on them, couldn't
you?

A. No, Detective Trujillo told us.

Q. Did you ever see the written report on that finding by CBI?

A. I don't know that CBI did a report on whether or not the sheets were urine stained.

Q. Surely you're not telling me that the CBI's forensic testers performed, the only test was to smell
and look at the sheets?

A. As I said, I have been told that there is not a presumptive test for urine.

Q. How about for the substances that make up or are found in urine?

A. I have no training or knowledge of that.

Q. How big was the area of the sheets where they were urine stained or wet?

A. I don't know.

Q. Isn't there something that describes that, a report?

A. Urine stained sheets according to Trujillo.

Q. Take a look at page 146 of your book, please. Down at the paragraph that starts "John Meyer."
Do you follow me?

A. Yes.

Q. "John Meyer, the Boulder County coroner, had barely begun his autopsy findings before Lee
questioned the urine stains found on the crotch of the long-john pants and the panties beneath them."
Have I read that correctly?

A. Yes.

Q. To put this into context, this would have been during the VIP explanation or conference, right?

A. No, I don't believe so.

Q. I'm sorry, when do you believe this event took place where Meyer was going through the autopsy
findings where Henry Lee was present?

A. I believe this was in 1997 at the Boulder Police Department.

Q. Do you know when in 1997?

A. My best guess would be maybe March, February.

Q. Reading on. "Were there corresponding stains on the bed sheets? We didn't know, although
when the crime became a murder instead of a kidnapping, those sheets should have been promptly
collected for testing." Have I read that correctly?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, you didn't know in February, are you telling me that you found out subsequent in time that
the sheets were wet? When did you find out, Mr. Thomas --

MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Let me -- why don't you just tell me, when did you first find out that the
sheets were wet?

A. I do not think the sheets were collected promptly. I think it was after the fact. And one of the
questions of this investigation was that no one had checked the bed on the morning of the 26th prior to a
wet bed possibly drying whether or not the bed was wet. But the sheets nonetheless were collected
and described to me as being urine stained and just recently saw something corroborating that when
Mr. Smit appeared on the Today Show and there was a comment from the CBI about that.

Q. Traces of creatinine were found; is that what you're talking about?

A. I don't think that is what they said on the NBC show.

Q. What did they say?

A. I think it said a CBI source said the sheets were or appeared to be urine stained.

Q. Let's go back and find out not so much what NBC was talking about. Let's find out what the
police knew. Were the sheets collected on December 26th, 1996 or not?

A. They were -- I don't know. I wasn't there.

Q. What did you find out about it?

A. That at some point during the ten days subsequent to December 26, 1996, when the house was a
crime scene, those sheets were collected.

Q. At such time as they would have, if wet, been dry; is that what you're telling me?

A. Possibly.


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Thomas depo 30 - bed sheets [View All], jamesonadmin, 04:40 PM, May-17-03, (0)  
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Ashley
unregistered user
May-17-03, 05:19 PM (EST)
 
1. "RE: Thomas depo 30 - bed sheets"
In response to message #0
 
   Thomas is such a bad liar. If those sheets had been wet EVERYONE would have known it to be true.

This whole thing is so stupid! His "theory". If she had wet the bed and Patsy killed her over it (lol) Patsy would have had urine smelling clothes on and everyone would have noticed it that day.

She would have had to get a soaked JB down to the basement... then be up all night in the same clothes and THEN look fresh as a daisy in the morning when the cops arrived! HAHAHHA!

I'm sorry, but what was Thomas thinking:? Or not thinking, I should say! LOL


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Slapfish
unregistered user
May-17-03, 07:40 PM (EST)
 
2. "RE: Thomas depo 30 - bed sheets"
In response to message #1
 
   How nice of NBC to help the police with their investigation.


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jamesonadmin
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11546 posts
May-17-03, 07:59 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Thomas depo 30 - bed sheets"
In response to message #2
 
   Actually, when the creatinine was noted, it was heralded as a BORG victory - - trace evidence of urine on the sheet was blown WAY out of proportion and for a short time the PDI theory went wild - - the motive was that wet bed.

But that trace evidence really proved nothing. The sheets were not wet, the trace evidence was found LONG after the murder using sophisticated lab equipment. Any person not trying to prove the bed was wet will tell you that a wet bed doesn't need microscopes to find the stain or smell.


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Smokey
unregistered user
May-17-03, 08:36 PM (EST)
 
4. "RE: Thomas depo 30 - bed sheets"
In response to message #3
 
   Forensic tests for urine stains would include using special lighting that makes body fluids glow in a dark room. Urine can be detected, contrary to Thomas' statement.

>>>A. Detective Trujillo imparted to me that he had learned or believed that there was not a presumptive test for urine according to the CBI.

http://www.mellesgriot.com/products/forensics/forensicstutorial.asp

"Detecting the presence of physiological (body) fluids: Forensic light sources may be used to detect the presence of blood, saliva, semen, urine, vaginal secretions, and sweat. The example below shows semen observed by using near-ultraviolet light."

If JonBenet's bed was freshly wet, on the morning of the 26th, even if it had dried by the time the sheets were collected, the urine stain would appear as a large, solid area under those lights. Even without special lighting, as noted above, the appearance and odor of fresh urine on the sheets the morning of the 26th would have been unmistakeable.

The CBI's microscopic analysis may have indicated the presence of creatine, but prior to that test, lighting would have used IMO.

Simply put, creatine is irrelevant if there were no visual or olfactory indicators, no apparent stains in crime scene photographs and no pool of urine observed under special lighting.



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daylily
unregistered user
May-18-03, 11:31 AM (EST)
 
5. "Need more info"
In response to message #4
 
   While it's true that a wet bed doesn't require microscopes to find the stain or smell, the fact that lab tests were performed doesn't necessarily mean the bed wasn't wet. I would guess that lab tests were necessary because simple human observation of the apparent state of a bedsheet wouldn't fly in a court of law.

Alternatively, the fact that the lab tests revealed evidence of urine doesn't necessarily prove that the bed had been wet THAT NIGHT. What we need are some more definitive answers.

Did the person(s) who removed the sheets notice the fresh odor of urine? I think this is important, because I would guess that over time, the odor would fade.

Was there an apparently unlaundered urine stain on the bed, visible to the naked eye?

Did the lab tests show only trace evidence of urine or was there a large amount? Surely there's a way to show the difference between finding trace evidence of urine from previous, pre-laundering bedwetting incidents and the overwhelming evidence from a sheet that had been through a bedwetting without being laundered.

I'm sure all these questions have been answered. However, the depo testimony above doesn't really provide those answers.



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jamesonadmin
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May-18-03, 12:23 PM (EST)
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6. "more info"
In response to message #5
 
   When the sheets were photographed and when they were taken in as evidence.... there was NO note that they were wet. They appeared to be dry and clean.

That is the truth.

That is one reason Thomas' theory was inane from the start.


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Ashley
unregistered user
May-18-03, 10:17 PM (EST)
 
7. "RE: more info"
In response to message #6
 
   He stated that she must have been wearing the red turtleneck and got it wet and that is why it was balled up and tossed aside.

Bulls***, did he EVER bother to see if it was urine stained? NO, did he ever bother to do anything but make up his own little theories and lies and put these peopel thru a LIVING HELL.

I hate him with a passion!


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Smokey
unregistered user
May-18-03, 10:35 PM (EST)
 
8. "RE: more info"
In response to message #7
 
   Steve Thomas wouldn't want to test the red turtleneck for urine, would he? If he was wrong, so goes his thinking, it would only help 'the defense.'

I find his biased behavior and lack of simple logic more than disturbing - I think it may fall under CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE.


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Mame
Member since Feb-19-03
24 posts
May-18-03, 11:17 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: more info"
In response to message #7
 
   Given that his entire theory is based on bedwetting, you would assume he'd at least know the evidence supporting his theory! Hell, he doesn't even know when the sheets were taken to CBI for testing!!! He doesn't know if or how they were tested.

The guy must have been smoking crack througout this entire investigation.


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Lilac
unregistered user
May-19-03, 01:29 PM (EST)
 
10. "What a Whacko!"
In response to message #9
 
   If I didn't know better, judging by these answers and others, I'd say HE had something to do with this crime. good gosh!


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jamesonadmin
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11546 posts
May-19-03, 02:20 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: What a Whacko!"
In response to message #10
 
   He wasn't dealing with facts - - that is clear - - he was dealing with his hypothesis, his theory.

Amazing.

More amazing is that a publisher would go along with that.


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candle
unregistered user
May-19-03, 03:05 PM (EST)
 
12. "RE: What a Whacko!"
In response to message #11
 
   He has no concious. He didn't even bother to look at the sheets himself!?! I've seen the crimescene pictures of the sheets on the bed, they looked clean to me.

This so-called investigator didn't even investigate but he could write his tale and claim it was true.

Patsy was already a broken woman, crushed by the brutal murder of her beloved child. What Thomas did was equivalent to taking someone who has been crippled and mercilessly beating them leaving them to bleed. Destroying lifes to make a buck.

What a horrible man.


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Tricky Woo
unregistered user
May-19-03, 04:15 PM (EST)
 
13. "RE: What a Whacko!"
In response to message #12
 
   The extent to which Thomas was willing to play fast and loose with the "evidence" that supports his theory, reveals him to be as much a hot head of a detective as he was a trigger happy narc.


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