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Conferences old depo and interview threads Topic #59
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jamesonadmin
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Nov-09-03, 06:32 PM (EST)
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"Patsy in Atlanta 15 - Burke's security"
 
   220
22 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Mrs. Ramsey, after
23 the homicide, I mean, you mentioned several
24 times in the book on several occasions where
25 you wondered if the killer was watching you

221
1 or following you. You know, I think you
2 described one time when you had some cable
3 that was cut at your house by some workmen
4 and the lights were out or something like
5 that, and Mr. Ramsey wondered if the killer
6 might be in there.
7 I mean, you had a concern about
8 this person being out there and coming after
9 you and your family after the homicide?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. And I take it your
12 biggest concern was for Burke; is that
13 correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. And you got -- there
16 were some security arrangements for Burke
17 when he went back to school, I believe, at
18 the end of January. Were you involved in
19 those discussions --
20 A. Absolutely.
21 Q. -- of the security arrangements?
22 Do you remember who those took place with or
23 where they took place?
24 A. At the High Peak School, we made
25 arrangements for Tracy Temple to be in there.

222
1 She is with a security company in Colorado.
2 There were also parent volunteers who sat
3 outside the classroom and basically watched
4 him at all times.
5 Q. All right. And so you wanted to
6 have security in the school in case somebody
7 were to come in and try to do harm to
8 Burke?
9 A. And we set up a 911 system. The
10 teacher, I believe the teacher and one of
11 the parents would always have a little
12 medallion that they could press in an
13 emergency.
14 Q. Why was Tracy Temple only hired
15 for one week?
16 MR. WOOD: Why was she what?
17 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Why was Tracy
18 Temple only employed for one week to be at
19 the school?
20 A. Well, we wanted her to stay
21 longer, but the school felt like it was a
22 disruption to the children.
23 Q. So it was the school's decision,
24 not yours?
25 A. Yes. So we compromised and had

223
1 the Burke watch set up.
2 Q. Why did you insist that Ms.
3 Temple be inside the classroom rather than
4 out in the hall?
5 A. She wasn't in the classroom.
6 Q. No, no, no. Why did you -- but
7 there was discussion that you had with the
8 school authorities that Tracy be allowed to
9 be inside the classroom, and the school
10 authorities objected to that. Do you recall
11 that?
12 MR. WOOD: Do you represent that
13 as fact?
14 MR. KANE: Yeah, that's a fact.
15 THE WITNESS: I don't, I --
16 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Do you remember
17 that?
18 A. I don't remember that.
19 Q. Okay. What was your concern? I
20 mean, what was in your mind when you were
21 trying to construct these security
22 arrangements with the 911 thing, with
23 Ms. Temple, with the moms and all? What was
24 the scenario you had in mind that you were
25 trying to protect against?

224
1 A. One of my children had just been
2 brutally murdered in the sanctity of our
3 home. I have one remaining child, and I
4 didn't want him let out of my sight. I
5 didn't want him to return to school. I
6 didn't want to return to Boulder. I was
7 frightened for all of our safety.
8 Then it became apparent that it
9 would be in Burke's best interest to be back
10 in a routine in his normal environment with
11 his friends, and I saw the benefit of that.
12 And I said the only way I will let him go
13 is that if there is a great deal of security
14 put in place.
15 Q. And that's why you hired
16 professionals such as Tracy Temple?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I think Ellis Armistead also had
19 some involvement in that; correct?
20 A. Well, together or somehow they
21 installed that wiring system and all that
22 kind of stuff.
23 Q. Why did you allow Burke to go to
24 school without a guard and have Susan Stein
25 transport him?

225
1 A. Well, Susan had the medallion.
2 The medallion was in Burke's proximity at any
3 given time.
4 Q. That medallion worked in the
5 school, it was tied into something in the
6 principal's office; is that correct?
7 A. Right, right.
8 Q. So on the way to school it
9 wouldn't work. Why did you allow her to go
10 without any security and against Tracy
11 Temple's advice, as a matter of fact, to be
12 transported to and from school when he was
13 most vulnerable?
14 A. Well, he left the garage in a
15 locked car and drove straight to school and
16 then was escorted into the school.
17 Q. You didn't have any concerns about
18 somebody at a stop sign?
19 MR. WOOD: Mr. Kane, Michael --
20 MR. KANE: What is the objection
21 now?
22 MR. WOOD: I just wonder what
23 does this have to do with the investigation
24 into finding who killed JonBenet Ramsey?
25 MR. KANE: The very fact that I'm

226
1 asking it means it has something to do with
2 it.
3 MR. WOOD: What?
4 MR. KANE: I don't have to, I
5 don't have to, if you're now going to make
6 me justify every question that I ask, now
7 we're so, you know, in the very beginning,
8 Lin, you sent a letter --
9 MR. WOOD: Don't point.
10 MR. KANE: I am not. I am just
11 emphasizing. You sent a letter --
12 MR. WOOD: I point sometimes.
13 MR. KANE: You know, this is
14 nothing personal. You are doing your job
15 and I am doing mine.
16 In the very beginning you sent a
17 letter to us, and you laid down this fair
18 and objective, as long as these questions are
19 fair and objective you'll answer, and I wrote
20 back to you, I wrote a letter back, and
21 within five minutes of you getting that
22 letter off your fax machine, you were on the
23 phone with me. And then the next thing you
24 said --
25 MR. WOOD: You know, I wrote a

227
1 letter to Chief Beckner, which I would be
2 glad to make part of this record, and then I
3 got a letter from you, and I called you.
4 MR. KANE: That's right. And we
5 spoke about that the next day.
6 MR. WOOD: We talked for over an
7 hour and a half.
8 MR. KANE: And the next day you
9 wrote another letter saying that there would
10 be no conditions on this interview.
11 MR. WOOD: Now, wait a minute.
12 MR. KANE: Oh, yes, you did.
13 MR. WOOD: I didn't impose any
14 conditions.
15 MR. KANE: You are now. Now
16 you're asking me what's the purpose of me
17 asking a question. That's a condition.
18 MR. WOOD: No, it's not.
19 MR. KANE: What do you call it?
20 MR. WOOD: Just what it was.
21 I asked you a question.
22 MR. KANE: And I'm saying I don't
23 have to explain my purpose. I am asking the
24 question.
25 MR. WOOD: Mr. Kane --

228
1 MR. KANE: If you don't want to
2 answer the question, don't answer it, but I
3 don't have to justify the question.

We all know that this is not going to tell investigators who killed JonBenét - this is simply badgering and upsetting the witness - wasting time and making sure the Ramseys will not feel like they are partners with LE trying to solve this crime.

I understand that Kane was trying to make a record here - Burke went to school - he didn't have an armed body guard. The BORG could say that was because the parents knew there was no killer - they could also say the teachers were advised not to wear green on Thursdays because it was an unlucky thing to do.

This was a waste of time - - I knew that the first timeI watched the tapes and I was a bit upset - - but just wait until you see what Kane pulls out of his hat - - it comes soon.


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Patsy in Atlanta 15 - Burke's security [View All], jamesonadmin, 06:32 PM, Nov-09-03, (0)  
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jamesonadmin
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Nov-09-03, 06:36 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta 15 - Burke's securi"
In response to message #0
 
   228
4 MR. WOOD: Mr. Kane, you
5 misrepresent my letter to you. You
6 misrepresent our conversation. You
7 misrepresent your statements that I have
8 imposed conditions. Let me finish.
9 MR. KANE: You know, Mr. Wood,
10 this is a sham.
11 MR. WOOD: No, it's not.
12 MR. KANE: This is a big
13 publicity stunt on your part.
14 MR. WOOD: No, it's not.
15 MR. KANE: You want to go out
16 there and say my clients answered every
17 question. Well, don't say that because you
18 are not letting your client answer this
19 question.

Kane was frothing at the mouth when he said that - -
"You want to go out there and say my clients answered every question. Well, don't say that because you are not letting your client answer this question."


!!!!!!

I am glad everyone is getting to see this temper tantrum - -

I know Lin was hot at moments too - - I am not going to say he was not - - but I think his anger was justified.

I see Kane as being a bully who just found out the teacher was not leaving the playground and was keeping a good eye out for a problem.


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-09-03, 06:39 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta 15 - Burke's securi"
In response to message #1
 
   228
20 MR. WOOD: Mr. Kane, why don't
21 you sit down and let's try --
22 MR. KANE: You are obstructing.
23 You are obstructing, Lin. You are asking me
24 now to justify why I am asking the
25 questions.

229
1 MR. WOOD: Mr. Kane, sit down.
2 Sit down.
3 MR. KANE: Yes or no, can she
4 answer that question?
5 MR. WOOD: Mr. Kane, life does
6 not always turn on what Michael Kane thinks
7 is fair. Just give me a second. I don't
8 think I am being unreasonable.
9 MR. KANE: I think you are.
10 You're asking me to justify.
11 MR. WOOD: Give me a chance to
12 talk without jumping up and making your
13 preplanned speeches.
14 MR. KANE: You stated your
15 objection.
16 MR. WOOD: Now wait a minute.
17 You all made the request and you all set the
18 conditions, and I agreed to them at the
19 direction of John and Patsy. I got the
20 letters that demonstrate and document that.
21 The only thing I asked for was the courtesy
22 of whether you would consider this being done
23 in Atlanta, and you quickly said yes. I
24 asked for a stenographic reporter because of
25 the concern over an accurate transcript

230
1 because there never had been one in the
2 prior interviews in April of '97 and in June
3 of 1998.
4 And that's it. I didn't impose
5 any conditions, and I don't want to be
6 misrepresented in that connection.
7 All I've done today, because I
8 thought we were here to be productive, in
9 looking for the killer of this child, the
10 parents want to come in here and help you,
11 but when you start asking questions about why
12 did you let Burke go to school with Susan
13 Stein, I mean, with all due respect, I mean,
14 I haven't instructed that she can't answer
15 it, but I don't think it's unfair and
16 unreasonable for me to say, what in the
17 world does that have to do with the question
18 of moving this investigation forward on who
19 killed this child.
20 MR. KANE: Let's go back to what
21 I said.
22 MR. WOOD: I didn't mean to get
23 you all upset and hot and bothered. I just
24 thought it was a fair question. To my mind,
25 Susan Stein drove Burke Ramsey to school in

231
1 a locked automobile and dropped him off, I
2 am having a lot of trouble finding something
3 sinister about that or inconsistent with a
4 parent's love and protection of their son.
5 MR. KANE: Well, I think it is
6 inconsistent, number one. Number two, it
7 doesn't matter what I think.
8 MR. WOOD: It does. You are the
9 special prosecutor.
10 MR. KANE: What matters is, if
11 you ever think an intruder is going to be,
12 and I'm going to go back to the speech I
13 made in the very beginning that I made two
14 years ago to John Ramsey, if you ever expect
15 for us to be able to put a case against an
16 intruder together, the intruder is going to
17 ask that question. The intruder is going to
18 say, why is it that the parents of a month
19 after their child is murdered allow their son
20 to be transported at a time when he is most
21 vulnerable, at a time when their own security
22 people said this is crazy to be transported
23 with no protection. And that is a
24 legitimate question.
25 Now, are you going to let her

232
1 answer or not?
2 MR. WOOD: Let me say this to
3 you. That, again, Mr. Kane -- and I don't
4 mean, Mr. Kane -- Michael, you know, you
5 have a perspective. I just think that what
6 you are trying to represent about the lack
7 of security --
8 MR. KANE: Mr. Wood, you are an
9 obstructionist.
10 MR. WOOD: Let me finish, Mike.
11 I'm not an obstructionist.
12 MR. KANE: You go out there and
13 you tell these press people that they
14 cooperated, and I will go out and tell them
15 what really happened in here.
16 MR. WOOD: Mr. Kane, what's
17 happened here is you are looking to storm
18 out for no reason.
19 MR. KANE: I'm looking to go
20 storm out because I can't ask a question --
21 MR. WOOD: Take five, take five
22 minutes and be reasonable enough to listen.
23 MR. KANE: Look, I don't need
24 this. It is a game. You're playing a
25 game.

233
1 MR. LEVIN: Take five minute.
2 MR. WOOD: Take five minutes.
3 MR. KANE: Are we going to take
4 every five minutes every time I ask a
5 question because you want to, you want to
6 know what it is that's in my mind. I just
7 told you what's in my mind.
8 MR. WOOD: Mr. Kane, we are both
9 trying to do our jobs under very unusual and
10 difficult circumstances.
11 MR. KANE: Right. And my job is
12 not to stand in the way of the truth.
13 CHIEF BECKNER: Let us take a
14 time out.
15 MR. LEVIN: Let's take five
16 minutes.
17 MR. WOOD: If you are implying my
18 job is to obstruct the truth, I take that as
19 a professional insult. And you will not be
20 staying in my office. I pay the rent here.
21 I will not be insulted by you.
22 MR. KANE: That's fine.
23 CHIEF BECKNER: Time out. Time
24 out.
25 (A recess was taken.)


MR. KANE: You go out there and you tell these press people that they cooperated, and I will go out and tell them what really happened in here.

Well, now we all know.... and this was just the first day!


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one_eyed Jack
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Nov-09-03, 08:16 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta 15 - Burke's securi"
In response to message #2
 
   That is quite the bedside manner Kane has there. Even his own people were calling out for a break. Patsy must have been just sitting there watching this man's face and listening to the tone of his voice knowing that it was hopeless.


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Ashley
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Nov-09-03, 09:35 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta 15 - Burke's securi"
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-03 AT 09:40 PM (EST)
 
It just shows you how utterly desperate they were to try and make a case against the Ramsey's.AND how inexperienced they were in homicide.

JoBenet was not kidnapped on her way to school while a friend was driving. She was not taken from the classroom. She was taken from her bed by a coward who snuck in while everyone was asleep.

Not much chance of SUCH a coward going to steal Burke out of a moving car or even at a a stop sign in broad daylight with people awake.

If Kane had half a brain he would never even have questioned WHY Burke went back to school.

But there didn't seem to be a whole lot of sense made down at the BPD.

Edited to add: If the killer wanted Burke, he had his chance the night he killed JB. It was quite obvious he wasn't after Burke.

DUH!!! Mr. Kane, you aren't too bright are you?


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Margoo
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Nov-10-03, 03:45 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Patsy in Atlanta 15 - Burke's securi"
In response to message #4
 
   What did they expect the Ramseys to do with Burke? Send him to school with body guards? In an armored car? The Ramseys clearly wanted to get Burke back into HIS routine and in familiar surroundings with HIS peers. This whole time frame was incredibly traumatic for the entire family. As Patsy said, Burke was her only remaining child. Their world had been completely rocked. Their sense of security had been completely torn down. Someone came into THEIR home, while THEY slept, and murdered THEIR child (NOT Kane's child, not my child, and not your child). I think this attempt at some degree of security was a compromise between getting Burke back into his familiar surroundings and comfortable with his world and keeping him under tight surveillance. An armored car and/or body guards would have heightened his fears (very extreme). SOME attempts were made to keep him under the watchful eye of several adults, but not in such a way as to be invasive, add to his uncertainty, and hinder his re-entry into his comfort zone.


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clem
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Nov-10-03, 08:52 AM (EST)
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6. "Lin Woods"
In response to message #5
 
   I think Patsy could have stayed home and just let Mr. Woods do the interview from what I've read.


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Margoo
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Nov-10-03, 05:29 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Lin Woods"
In response to message #6
 
   LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-03 AT 05:31 PM (EST)
 
LOL, Clem. The fact that Lin Wood had occasion to step up to the plate so often told me a few things. One of them was that the questioners (even with all their years of professional practice) were not that well versed in making their questions clear and to the point. Another was that this crew was not honoring the intent and purpose of the meeting. These 'meetings' cost money (hourly billings by attorneys, the salary of or overtime pay of Chief Beckner, travel expenses, videographer, stenos, etc). This meeting was in Atlanta. WHOSE dollar was it on? If there was even a partial billing to the Ramseys (and, of course there was since they had to pay AT LEAST for Lin's time), I think their attorney had a right to question its purpose. If the state of Colorado was picking up the tab, then I think it would have been at least courteous to have agreed to the parameters and stuck to them (which I believe Lin indicates was done, but for some reason K&C reneged). Preparation on the part of either side should be based on the same expectations.


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clem
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Nov-10-03, 06:31 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Lin Woods"
In response to message #7
 
   I do not think either parent was involved with the murder. I do think their attorney(s) are stumbling blocks to the investigative process, if there is such a thing. That may very well be how dumb I am. :-)



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jamesonadmin
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Nov-10-03, 10:27 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Lin Woods"
In response to message #8
 
   Clem, their attorney is certainly not considered a problem by the new investigative team. It was only the BORG group that found they were having problems.


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Margoo
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Nov-11-03, 02:14 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: Lin Woods"
In response to message #9
 
   I don't think anyone is "dumb" about their view of what is revealed by these transcripts, but you do have to read between the lines. Each side will press whatever buttons and boundaries to accomplish their agenda. I see a normal exchange between legal minds. I don't think either side is doing anything other than what they feel is 'best' for the 'side' they represent. I don't think anyone is acting outside the boundaries of what they are ALL familiar with. This is their normal adversarial terms of reference and behavior. The problem for K&C is their 'adversary' did not fall asleep at the wheel (as can so often happen with unconcerned attorneys). I have to admire Lin Wood for being alert and responsive to the actions of "the other side".


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-11-03, 08:30 AM (EST)
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11. "Clem"
In response to message #10
 
   I don't know why Clem is so against the Ramseys - I certainly don't see where Patsy didn't answer questions - I see her and John hoping to be allowed to brainstorm.... but clearly they thought their investigators had more to offer than they did - they were not involved in the investigation, they did not hire or follow the expert consultants.

But when K&C went to Atlanta to change the scope of the interview - to make it an interrogation and accusation rather than a serious effort to get to the truth - - yeah, I wish they had stayed in Boulder - told Lin on the phone what their intentions were so he could tell them they weren't going to be allowed to do that - stay home - save time and money.


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clem
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Nov-11-03, 09:26 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Clem"
In response to message #11
 
   :) I am not against the Ramseys.


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Slapfish
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Nov-13-03, 08:24 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Clem"
In response to message #12
 
   This argument is very similar to one being used against Robert Blake. He said that Bonny was afraid of someone stalking her, so he carried a gun to protect her. On the night she was killed, he inadvertantly left it in the restaurant and he walked back to get it. During that time she was killed.

He is criticised for leaving her alone while he returned for the restaurant. The argument is if he were so concerned for her safety why would he leave her alone? There are explanations, but at least in his case I believe it's a fair question.

In the Ramseys case it has nothing to do with the case at all. Had they professed fear for Burke and yet done NOTHING to add security, or perhaps put him in dangerous situations (leaving him alone in a park, store etc...) then it might have some bearing on their possible guilt.

Because they didn't take every precaution that on hindsight some people believed they should, doesn't mean they weren't careful and concerned about his safetey. This is an extremely weak argument on their part and a waste of time during this interrogation...oops I mean interview.


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clem
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Nov-13-03, 09:26 AM (EST)
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14. "The question"
In response to message #13
 
   Why did you allow her to go
10 without any security and against Tracy
11 Temple's advice, as a matter of fact, to be
12 transported to and from school when he was
13 most vulnerable?

What appears to me is that the Ramseys trusted Ms. Stein. Why it wasn't allowed that the question be answered is beyond me.


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-13-03, 09:57 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: The question"
In response to message #14
 
   Tracy Temple was a security person - paid for her advice and a few days work, would you really think she would say Susan Stine was good enough coverage?

But remember the crime - this was not a person who was attacking in broad daylight - this was someone who snuck in at night. This was not a person who carried out his crime in front of any adult - he did it when he was alone with a 45 pound child - - and he had a stun gun, cord, tape....

SickPuppy had his chance to take Burke and did not.

Susan Stine was plenty of security under the circumstances.


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clem
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Nov-13-03, 12:04 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: The question"
In response to message #15
 
   Tracy Temple was a security person - paid for her advice and a few days work, would you really think she would say Susan Stine was good enough coverage?

I would think Temple would not say Stine was good enough.
I would think Patsy would say she was. And she was indeed.

I personally do not take the stun gun as a fact. I agree there is evidence of it, tho.


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