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Mikiemoderator
unregistered user
May-09-03, 10:21 AM (EST)
 
"Blue Van and Jaguar"
 
   http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/art/extra/ramsey/thm/img022.html

Unknown vehicles: An unknown party parked in a blue van across the street from the Ramsey residence Dec. 24. An unknown Jaguar was seen in the area during a Christmas party at a friend's home Dec. 25.

I wonder if anyone ever found out whose cars these were?

In DOI, John wrote about a strange car that he saw next door, I believe, on Christmas morning.


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Blue Van and Jaguar [View All], Mikie , 10:21 AM, May-09-03, (0)  
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jamesonadmin
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10561 posts
May-09-03, 10:43 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Blue Van and Jaguar"
In response to message #0
 
   Can't tell details but there were several suspicious vehicles out there and no, they were not identified, at least they had not been before the BPD gave up the case.


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Mikiemoderator
unregistered user
May-09-03, 11:54 PM (EST)
 
2. "John saw a car, morning of 26th"
In response to message #1
 
   From DOI, page 15; John writing.

"The note says the kidnappers will be watching. Maybe I can catch them looking at us. I race upstarirs and find a pair of binoculars. I start looking up and down the street.
There's a strange vehicle in the alley behind the Barnhills', I note.
After several minutes of watching the vehicle, nothing happens so I finally go back downstairs. The phone rings. Everyone freezes as I slowly pick up the receiver."
(It was Rod Westmoreland, his banker.)


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Maikai
unregistered user
May-10-03, 10:30 AM (EST)
 
3. "Big difference between a"
In response to message #2
 
   parked vehicle with no occupants, and a parked vehicle with someone sitting in it! I don't know why the jaguar would be all that suspicious---Boulder had a lot of wealthy residents.


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Terrance
unregistered user
May-10-03, 10:44 AM (EST)
 
4. "RE: Blue Van"
In response to message #3
 
   Who reported the Blue Van? What were the conditions surrounding this Blue Van? Was it parked empty and for a long time? Does anyone know?


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Ashley
unregistered user
May-10-03, 01:53 PM (EST)
 
5. "RE: Blue Van"
In response to message #4
 
   If the killer would have come to the home in a van, what would have stopped him from taking JB away in it that night?

You think he would be brave enough to be in the neighborhood in the morning with her dead body in the basement and NOT be brave enough to take her from the home the night before? Maybe, but it dosen't seem likely to me.

I think the killer was in the house pretending to be a friend.


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jamesonadmin
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10561 posts
May-10-03, 02:26 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Blue Van"
In response to message #5
 
   Why not take JonBenét from the house?

Lou Smit thinks the killer tried to get her out the window and failed, was afraid to go through the door because he saw the alarm was activated.

I think he didn't take her out because he didn't have a place to take her - - the basement was safe from prying eyes - - safer than the streets of Boulder.

Only SickPuppy knows for sure.


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Ashley
unregistered user
May-10-03, 03:51 PM (EST)
 
7. "RE: Blue Van"
In response to message #6
 
   But the alarm wasn't activated, was it?

I think he may have planned to hide her body in the suitcase, only it didn't work.

You're right, only sick puppy knows for sure and so far he's not talking.


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jamesonadmin
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May-10-03, 05:06 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Blue Van"
In response to message #7
 
   The fire alarm was set, not the burglar alarm - - but the theory is the killer didn't know what was set or not set, just the light was on so something was working.


I have gone in and out that basement window myself - not so hard.

But you can't put something in the windowwwell and climb over it and out - - and you can't get in the window well and turn around and grab something off the basement floor and pull it in the window well with you. Just doesn't work.


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Maikai
unregistered user
May-10-03, 06:43 PM (EST)
 
9. "Even if he thought the alarm"
In response to message #8
 
   had been set, if there was a vehicle nearby, he still could have gone through the door and taken off---there would have been several minutes before the police would have shown up---and then they would have been busy trying to figure out what happened--they would have been busy reading the note. There really was no reason to stop off in the basement and risk anymore time in the house, if he had a place to go to, IMO....and had a quick getaway.

It was very cold that night---how far away would the perp have gone on foot?

So....if the perp was on foot--how does that change the kidnapping scenario? Particularly if he had no place to go. Perhaps the note was done as part of the fantasy----and to also create a diversion, if someone started coming down the stairs while he was still in the house.

If it was a real kidnapping attempt, once the victim was dead, he may have thought it was all over---many have thought the same thing--why wouldn't the perp?


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Islander
unregistered user
May-10-03, 07:23 PM (EST)
 
10. "RE: Blue Van"
In response to message #8
 
   Jameson posts that Lou Smit thinks the intruder mistook the activated fire alarm system for the un-activated burglar alarm system and, as a result, was afraid to exit the house through the doors. The intruder tried but failed to get JB out through the basement window,leaving her body behind in the wine room. Does Smit believe the intruder first became aware of the security system after he already entered the house and saw the fire alarm activation light on? That may be so, but it seems a little far-fetched to me.

Put yourself in an intruder’s shoes for a minute. If you wanted to break into a house,you would first want to make sure that you could get in undetected. You would do that by first checking the exterior of the house for signs that the house was alarm protected. Although alarm systems vary, virtually all home security systems incorporate exterior signs claiming that the house is alarm protected. Just about everyone knows that, including the bad guys. I read somewhere that there were some alarm signs on the exterior of the Ramsey house.

I don’t think an intruder would wait to get into the house before checking for the security system. He would look for the exterior signs. Assuming he saw these exterior signs on the Ramsey home before attempting his break-in, why even make the attempt when there were other upscale and unoccupied houses in the neighborhood? Unless, of course, the intruder knew the Ramseys never activated the alarm, or was familiar with the alarm system and knew it could be overcome. An other alternative, of course, is that there was no intruder.

Until I see definitive evidence to contrary, I prefer to believe there was an intruder. Based on the intruder’s apparent disregard for the alarm system and his penchant for movies, I believe he is a young guy who was in the house before, not so much as an invited friend but more like a service emnployee. I read where the Ramseys often entertained. Maybe some of their parties were catered, and maybe one of the employees was a sick dude who felt slighted because he had to serve one of the “fat cats” he hated so much. Silly, maybe, but, at this stage of the investigation, I think this theory is just as sound as saying the Ramseys did it.


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BraveHeart
unregistered user
May-10-03, 08:46 PM (EST)
 
11. "RE: Off thread but...."
In response to message #10
 
   wonder if the original plan was to lower JB from the second floor balcony or JAR's window in the suitcase with the (sack of) rope tied to the handle?


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the anti-k
unregistered user
May-11-03, 00:39 AM (EST)
 
12. "RE: Off thread but...."
In response to message #11
 
   It seems that some people tend to believe that the killer botched things a bit, that he had a plan and a goal in mind but that somewhere along the line things went wrong. For example, he had intended or would have wanted to remove jbr from the house. When one views the crime from this paradigm one is forced into an apologetic form of analysis. They have to invent excuses for why he didn’t do this or didn’t do that, ways to explain mistakes or errors in judgment or unplanned contingencies encountered by the killer while engaged in the commission of the crime.

He wrote the note because he was bored, fantasizing, had time to kill…
He didn’t remove jbr because he couldn’t get her through the window, she wouldn’t fit in the suitcase, there were people in the street…
He panicked when she screamed and…

He started out with one plan and changed it mid-stream due to some unforeseen circumstance.

I prefer a paradigm that tries to explain the known ‘facts’ as part of an intentional and, on the surface, at the moment of action, fully realized plan. There were no mistakes, errors of judgment or last minute alterations. The fact that the killer has been able to escape discovery and suspicion (as far as we can tell) for so long supports this paradigm. Not only has he escaped discovery and suspicion for an extended period of time many could not even be convinced of his existence. There was no intruder.



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unsure
unregistered user
May-11-03, 06:35 AM (EST)
 
13. "RE: Off thread but...."
In response to message #12
 
  
>I prefer a paradigm that tries to explain the known ‘facts’
>as part of an intentional and, on the surface, at the moment
>of action, fully realized plan. There were no mistakes,
>errors of judgment or last minute alterations. The fact that
>the killer has been able to escape discovery and suspicion
>(as far as we can tell) for so long supports this paradigm.
>Not only has he escaped discovery and suspicion for an
>extended period of time many could not even be convinced of
>his existence. There was no intruder.

Are you saying without an intruder, mistakes, errors of judgment or last minute alterations that JonBenet's mother, father, or brother without motive, thought up all this puzzling evidence and did this elaborate murder? In the next line you say the killer has been able to escape suspicion? Wouldn't that nuke this paradigm since they have all been under major suspicion for years?


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the anti-k
unregistered user
May-11-03, 08:43 PM (EST)
 
14. "RE: Off thread but...."
In response to message #13
 
   >
>>I prefer a paradigm that tries to explain the known ‘facts’
>>as part of an intentional and, on the surface, at the moment
>>of action, fully realized plan. There were no mistakes,
>>errors of judgment or last minute alterations. The fact that
>>the killer has been able to escape discovery and suspicion
>>(as far as we can tell) for so long supports this paradigm.
>>Not only has he escaped discovery and suspicion for an
>>extended period of time many could not even be convinced of
>>his existence. There was no intruder.
>
>Are you saying without an intruder, mistakes, errors of
>judgment or last minute alterations that JonBenet's mother,
>father, or brother without motive, thought up all this
>puzzling evidence and did this elaborate murder? In the
>next line you say the killer has been able to escape
>suspicion? Wouldn't that nuke this paradigm since they have
>all been under major suspicion for years?

hmmmmm, maybe you need to reread what i've said because i haven't written anything close to your interpretation. i am saying a)there was an intruder and b)there were no mistakes, errors of judgment or last minute alterations committed by the intruder


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the anti-k
unregistered user
May-11-03, 08:57 PM (EST)
 
15. "RE: Off thread but...."
In response to message #14
 
   >>
>>>I prefer a paradigm that tries to explain the known ‘facts’
>>>as part of an intentional and, on the surface, at the moment
>>>of action, fully realized plan. There were no mistakes,
>>>errors of judgment or last minute alterations. The fact that
>>>the killer has been able to escape discovery and suspicion
>>>(as far as we can tell) for so long supports this paradigm.
>>>Not only has he escaped discovery and suspicion for an
>>>extended period of time many could not even be convinced of
>>>his existence. There was no intruder.
>>
>>Are you saying without an intruder, mistakes, errors of
>>judgment or last minute alterations that JonBenet's mother,
>>father, or brother without motive, thought up all this
>>puzzling evidence and did this elaborate murder? In the
>>next line you say the killer has been able to escape
>>suspicion? Wouldn't that nuke this paradigm since they have
>>all been under major suspicion for years?
>
>hmmmmm, maybe you need to reread what i've said because i
>haven't written anything close to your interpretation. i am
>saying a)there was an intruder and b)there were no mistakes,
>errors of judgment or last minute alterations committed by
>the intruder

and also c) that the intruder has, in part, escaped detection because for a long period of time no one even believed in his existence


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unsure
unregistered user
May-11-03, 11:04 PM (EST)
 
17. "RE: Off thread but...."
In response to message #15
 
   Sorry, the last line "There was no intruder" must have confused me.


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Evening2
unregistered user
May-11-03, 09:12 PM (EST)
 
16. "RE: The alarm"
In response to message #13
 
   Unless the basement windows were armed, an intruder could easily enter and exit and the alarm would not be activated. They may only have had the doors armed.


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Islander
unregistered user
May-11-03, 11:06 PM (EST)
 
18. "RE: The alarm"
In response to message #16
 
   >Unless the basement windows were armed, an intruder could
>easily enter and exit and the alarm would not be activated.
>They may only have had the doors armed.

That depends on the type of alarm system in place. In my house, I have only the doors armed. However, I also have motion detectors that will detect movement of anyone entering through my basement or first floor windows.

From reading Smit's theory, I think he believes the intruder selected the basement window because he saw that it did not have a sticker on it indicating that it was alarm protected. If that is the case, the intruder either: (1) knew that Ramsey's alarm system was not activated or did not incorporate motion detectors; or(2) disregarded the risk of setting off the security alarm, and was just plain lucky that the system was not activated by the Ramseys.


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Maikai
unregistered user
May-12-03, 01:04 AM (EST)
 
19. "The basement window was broken...."
In response to message #0
 
   So he knew at least one point of entry wasn't armed. Once inside the house, he would be able to hear the phone ring if he set off the alarm---most security companies call. He couldn't be sure that once the Ramseys went to bed, they didn't set the alarm, and that there wouldn't be motion detectors. 'Course he may not have even thought about the motion detectors.

If the security system was an issue to the perp, then that wouldn't that rule out someone that had intimate knowledge of the Ramseys day to day living habits? An insider that knew they didn't set the alarm?


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Breccia
Member since Mar-12-03
61 posts
May-12-03, 10:13 PM (EST)
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20. "Alarming"
In response to message #19
 
   About Alarms
  • "Door/window Open" Sensors (if retrofit) are visible from the outside
  • motion detectors are also, and are visible in interior hallways etc once you are inside
  • alarm panels are COMMONLY quickly found- they tend to be installed in a similar way, in a similar location (not visible from an exterior window).

    Even if the basement window was broken, it could have been armed with a sensor BUT in older homes these are visible from the outside. (Looking in, from outside my back patio door the sensor is clearly visible above my front door.) The perp would also absolutely know, assuming he's cogent, that there is a sensor when he opens the door/window--- you hear/feel when the magnetic/electric connection is broken.

    As far as motion detectors go, if a window were broken I'd leave the motion detector OFF, atleast in that area, because windblown debris might set it off, as would a bird/cat/squirrel entering through the broken glass.

    So now we're down to the ALARM PANEL. If I were the perp (and I'm not!) I'd have a quick look to see what's flashing, as I picked up the phone extention to make sure no calls were out-going (to alarm company or the cops). Then I'd scan an exterior door or two-- Are there "door open" sensors? AND have a-quick-look-see that 2-key deadbolts were not set(in case I had to "bolt").

    Now, the perp is still a stupid-a$$ for breaking and entering and would be caught in most UPSCALE homes I've been to....my Dad has a second, secure phone that contacts the police and pressure-weight detectors in his hallways etc. His neighbors have battery-backed-up cameras and more. So really, breaking in is STUPID. These people have a short life-span. Let's hope that's true here.


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the anti-k
unregistered user
May-13-03, 01:52 AM (EST)
 
21. "RE: Alarming"
In response to message #20
 
   He went into the house prepared. He had a plan. He executed it.
It’s almost, so far, the perfect murder. Not only is he not a suspect, many people still don’t even believe that he exists.

He went into the house prepared. He had a plan.

Even if you believe that he botched his plan in one way or another, he still went into the house prepared for something, he had something in mind, he had a plan. If criminal success can be measured in terms of ‘getting away with it,’ then this crime was a huge success (so far). A fluke? Convergence? or something else… ?

Maybe the killer knew in advance how he was going to gain access to the house?

Maybe he already knew what to expect?

it would seem reasonable, considering thte above that he already knew how and where he was going to enter the house and what risks were involved. after all, he had a plan.


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