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LovelyPigeonmoderator
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Nov-19-02, 12:10 PM (EST)
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"DNA found on brand-new panties"
 
   DNA found on brand-new panties"

Rocky Mountain News

DNA may not help Ramsey inquiry
Samples found on JonBenet's clothing may be from factory
November 19, 2002

Investigators in the JonBenet Ramsey case believe that male DNA recovered from the slain child's underwear may not be critical evidence at all, and instead could have been left at the time of the clothing's manufacture.

In exploring that theory, investigators obtained unopened "control" samples of identical underwear manufactured at the same plant in Southeast Asia, tested them - and found human DNA in some of those new, unused panties.
...
And, investigators know the DNA found in the underwear - white, with red rose buds and the word "Wednesday" inscribed on the elastic waist band - was not left by seminal fluid.
...
And, wherever it came from, that investigator said, "We certainly don't think it is attributable to an assailant. That's our belief. When you take everything else in total, it doesn't make sense. I've always said this is not a DNA case. It's not hinging on DNA evidence."

In the couple's book about JonBenet's slaying, The Death of Innocence, John Ramsey called attention to the fact that the underwear DNA did not match anyone in the Ramsey family.

"The DNA from the stain found on JonBenet's underwear cannot be identified," he wrote. "The police have these test results, and we can only hope that they are checking all possible suspects against this genetic fingerprint.

On Monday, the Ramseys' attorney stopped short of making so firm a declaration.

"It's foreign DNA," said Lin Wood. "It's not the Ramseys' DNA, and I obviously think it's a very, very important piece of evidence."

Wood also pointed out that unidentified DNA was also recovered from beneath JonBenet's fingernails on both hands. But investigators have long said that contamination problems render those samples of little value.
The Ramseys' attorney scoffed at the notion that the underwear DNA might be traceable to the garment's production.
"That sounds like a pretty spectacularly imaginative theory to me," said Wood. Of Kane, he added, "I've never found Michael Kane to be objective."

brennanc@RockyMountainNews.com or (303) 892-2742

For full story see:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/ramsey/article/0,1299,DRMN_1296_1554639,00.html



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Sam
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Nov-19-02, 12:55 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: DNA found on brand-new panties"
In response to message #0
 
   Well I can see where dna could be located on a new pair of panties they mass produce them in sweat shops maybe they swet on some of them.
What I would like to know is how the dna under her fingernails got contaiminated are they trying to say because the father picked her up that he may have contaminated the dna under her fingernails HORSE MANURE. Also I read the word wendsday was written on the elastic on her panties that's news to me what does that mean. Also if the dna is no good and doesn't match Oliva that still leaves him the best suspect right.


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LovelyPigeonmoderator
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2. "SAM"
In response to message #1
 
   The autopsy report states:

Beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the words "Wednesday" on the elastic waistband. The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch in maximum dimension.

I find it unbelievalble that unidentified male DNA in found in the crotch of a sexually assaulted and murdered 6-year old girl's panties and under the fingernails of both her hands is considered unrelated to the crime!

I'd like to know--and have asked for years now--how many sexually assaulted & murdered children cases have found unidentified male DNA in their underwear that was unrelated to the crimes?


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-19-02, 03:35 PM (EST)
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3. "whole story and comment"
In response to message #2
 
   http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/ramsey/article/0,1299,DRMN_1296_1554639,00.html

DNA may not help Ramsey inquiry

Samples found on JonBenet's clothing may be from factory

By Charlie Brennan, Rocky Mountain News

November 19, 2002

Investigators in the JonBenet Ramsey case believe that male DNA recovered from the slain child's underwear may not be critical evidence at all, and instead could have been left at the time of the clothing's manufacture.

In exploring that theory, investigators obtained unopened "control" samples of identical underwear manufactured at the same plant in Southeast Asia, tested them - and found human DNA in some of those new, unused panties.

If investigators are right about possible production-line contamination - perhaps stemming from something as innocent as a worker's cough - then the genetic markers obtained from JonBenet's underpants are of absolutely no value in potentially excluding any suspects in the unsolved Boulder slaying.

And, investigators know the DNA found in the underwear - white, with red rose buds and the word "Wednesday" inscribed on the elastic waist band - was not left by seminal fluid.

"There is always a possibility that it got there through human handling," said former prosecutor Michael Kane, who ran the 13-month grand jury investigation which yielded no indictments in the case, now almost six years old.

"You have to ask yourself the possible ways that it got there," Kane said, "whether it was in the manufacture, the packaging or the distribution, or whether it was someone in the retail store who took it out to look at them."

Another investigator with expertise on forensic issues, who spoke only on the condition of anonymity, confirmed the theory that the underwear DNA might be the result of point-of-production contamination.

And, wherever it came from, that investigator said, "We certainly don't think it is attributable to an assailant. That's our belief. When you take everything else in total, it doesn't make sense. I've always said this is not a DNA case. It's not hinging on DNA evidence."

The autopsy report in JonBenet's slaying indicates her pelvic area was swabbed for potential DNA. There has never been any report that those swabs yielded any foreign genetic material. But any significance that might have must be weighed against the fact that the coroner, Dr. John Meyer, observed that the killer may have wiped JonBenet's body with a cloth.

JonBenet, 6, was found beaten and strangled in the basement of her parents' upscale Boulder home the afternoon of Dec. 26, 1996.

Her body was found about seven hours after her mother called police before dawn to say she had discovered a 2 ˝-page ransom note demanding $118,000 for the girl's safe return.

John and Patsy Ramsey left Boulder the following summer for Atlanta and reside there. They have denied any involvement in their daughter's death.

In the couple's book about JonBenet's slaying, The Death of Innocence, John Ramsey called attention to the fact that the underwear DNA did not match anyone in the Ramsey family.

"The DNA from the stain found on JonBenet's underwear cannot be identified," he wrote. "The police have these test results, and we can only hope that they are checking all possible suspects against this genetic fingerprint.

"Our belief is that this DNA belongs to the killer."

On Monday, the Ramseys' attorney stopped short of making so firm a declaration.

"It's foreign DNA," said Lin Wood. "It's not the Ramseys' DNA, and I obviously think it's a very, very important piece of evidence."

Wood also pointed out that unidentified DNA was also recovered from beneath JonBenet's fingernails on both hands. But investigators have long said that contamination problems render those samples of little value.

The Ramseys' attorney scoffed at the notion that the underwear DNA might be traceable to the garment's production.

"That sounds like a pretty spectacularly imaginative theory to me," said Wood. Of Kane, he added, "I've never found Michael Kane to be objective."

Wood said the DNA from the underwear was commingled with a spot of blood, making any theory of point-of-manufacture contamination "nonsensical." He also contended there are as many as a half-dozen genetic markers in common, between the DNA recovered from JonBenet's underwear and her fingernails.

Kane started a new job Monday as deputy secretary for enforcement in the Pennsylvania Department of Revenue - the same post he held before Boulder District Alex Hunter selected him to guide the Ramsey grand jury probe, which concluded Oct. 13, 1999.

He declined to comment further on the case, citing rules governing the secrecy of grand jury proceedings.

I guess the factory worker traveled to Boulder to cough on JonBenét's hands, too.

This BORG spin is really laughable - - or would be if it wasn't the reason a killer still walks free.


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-19-02, 03:46 PM (EST)
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4. "A question from my email"
In response to message #3
 
   The DNA found in JonBenet's underwear was Caucasian, Male DNA. How many male caucasians are working in Southeast Asia underwear manufacturing plants?


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Mikiemoderator
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Nov-19-02, 04:13 PM (EST)
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5. "other ideas"
In response to message #4
 
   Actually, correct me if I am wrong, but when men buy underwear it is usually in hermetically sealed packaging, depending on the type I suppose. But women's and girls underwear seems to always hang out on racks where people can touch it as it sits there. Suppose it was hanging there in the store and then some guy with a cold happened to sneeze on it or something like that.

Did the underwear we are talking about come in hermetically sealed packaging? Was it with the panties for a week? or was it just by itself? Anyone know?

Also, suppose the panties were laden with DNA from the clerk/customer who sneezed into them like a handkerchief, and then JonBenet put them on, could the DNA be transferred that way to her fingernails?

Not that I think that is what happened but I am just imagining things.


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-19-02, 04:25 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: other ideas"
In response to message #5
 
   Let's just pretend that the DNA in the underwear is actually from the manufacturing process (which I believe is BORG bullshit), doesn't that mean that any possible suspect who was cleared based on the DNA in the underwear must now be reinvestigated?

We would still have the hair and the DNA under her nails.


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Sam
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Nov-19-02, 04:32 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: other ideas"
In response to message #6
 
   Which brings up my next question does the hair and the dna under JB fingernails match.


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-19-02, 05:01 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: other ideas"
In response to message #7
 
   Don't know - - that's the truth. I just don't know


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Sam
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Nov-19-02, 05:08 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: DNA"
In response to message #7
 
   I agree 100% Lovely but what the source of the dna the only thing I can think of would be saliva. The problem is BDD wont release the dna reports and even then they can't identify the source of the dna.
Which brings us to how do we know the dna under her fingernails match or is consistant with the dna in her panties and what about the hair it was a pubic hair right it could be dna tested to see if it's consistant with any of the other samples.


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Sam
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Nov-19-02, 05:25 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: DNA"
In response to message #9
 
   On the 48 hours program it showed the Ramsey private investigators with a copy of the dna report is their anyway they could post it.
Also I really don't see where this accusation of the dna may have come from the manufactor makes any difference, it still doesn't match the Ramsey's and our other suspects like Oliva just keeps getting better.
But I agree with Lovely foreign male dna in the crotch of her panties indicates to me something not right and if it matches the dna under her nails well then horse manure on the BPD theory.


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DonBradley
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Nov-19-02, 05:28 PM (EST)
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11. "Been thinking 'bout that."
In response to message #4
 
   >How many male caucasians are working in Southeast Asia underwear manufacturing plants?
Even those Asian manufacturing plants are mechanized and to the extent they do have items individually handled it is not going to be by caucasian males.

Race to a geneticist is a very complex issue but surely this 'dna in the panties' is the ONLY case in history where a female is found raped and murdered and everyone goes to such great lengths to explain away male dna found on her corpse.



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KathyK
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Nov-19-02, 06:27 PM (EST)
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12. "DNA"
In response to message #11
 
   That's the first I've heard that there's half a dozen markers in common between the underwear and nail dna. I wish we could get a probability value of them being a match. Is it true that the dna is caucasian? - or is that mixed up with the hair being caucasian.

Isn't there a database of unidentified dna that was found in crime scenes? - I can't believe there wouldn't be. Dna is compared to a database of known sex criminals, it seems it would also be valuable info just to know that the same perp committed 2 different crimes, even if they don't know his identity.


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LovelyPigeonmoderator
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Nov-19-02, 10:33 PM (EST)
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13. "KathyK"
In response to message #12
 
   I also question that DNA reveals race.

Hair reveals race by microscopic examination though, so the pubic hair is known to be Caucasion.


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Maikai
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Nov-19-02, 10:33 PM (EST)
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14. "If they went to all that trouble"
In response to message #12
 
   to test panties from the same plant, then I hope they bothered to test the cigarette butts they gathered from outside that are sitting on a shelf somewhere, for DNA. If this perp were a smoker, then I think he smoked outside, and threw his butts down. He wasn't careful about other things...I don't think he'd be careful about his cigarette butts.


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Maikai
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Nov-19-02, 10:41 PM (EST)
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15. "Mikie...."
In response to message #14
 
   Those seven day panties come in a package, with each panty rolled up...so they wouldn't be hanging up. I suppose someone could have opened the package and blown their nose on the Wednesday ones....but not too likely. I could see if there was female DNA on the panties not identified, as possibly coming from a shopper handling them....but not male DNA in the crotch area.


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Mikiemoderator
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Nov-20-02, 10:14 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: Mikie...."
In response to message #15
 
   Thanks Maikai

Here's the latest story. Lin Wood is going to sue BPD by year's end.
http://www2.dailycamera.com/bdc/state_news/article/0,1713,BDC_2419_1557108,00.html

"Wood said the latest theory is another example of how investigators are out to get the Ramsey family.

Wood said he expects to file a civil lawsuit against the Boulder Police Department by the end of the year seeking compensatory damages for the Ramseys, and possibly seeking to transfer the investigation to another law enforcement agency. "


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LovelyPigeonmoderator
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17. "Thanks, Mikie!"
In response to message #16
 
   I've looked all over for that article!


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Sam
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Nov-20-02, 11:22 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: Thanks, Mikie!"
In response to message #17
 
   That's what I was wondering when were they going to file a slander suite because it's time.


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sissi
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19. "RE: Thanks, Mikie!"
In response to message #18
 
   LUDICROUS!!!!! Investigators say......good lord this is so much bs!
First,no scientist backed them up,why? because this was a mixed stain,including two samples that were not Jonbenet's. I think it is time Wood put a stop to the media being fed the ramblings of investigators who will say anything to promote their idiotic theories.


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Maikai
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20. "Wow! I missed that......."
In response to message #0
 
   it's no surprise that Lin Wood is going to file a lawsuit......I think it was just a question of when, and I think it'll be on December 26th....but will it be filed against the BPD or the City of Boulder, as the sovereign (???) This has been a LONG time coming.

Just think of all the ramifications because some sick pervert got an idea one night....


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momof6
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21. "RE: Wow! I missed that......."
In response to message #20
 
   Yes, DNA can and often does reveal race.


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Sam
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Nov-27-02, 12:09 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Wow! I missed that......."
In response to message #21
 
   MOMOF6 Where did you find that dna can tell race because if that is correct, that's news to me. I have heard that new test in the future may be able to distinguish race and even mental illness. But the only way test of today can determine race is to match it with a individual.


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