Thomas deposition

EXAMINATION BY-MR.HOFFMAN:

Q. Hello, Mr. Thomas.

A. Hello, Mr. Hoffman. How are you?

Q. Fine. How are you?

A. Fine. Thank you.

Q. Can you hear me all right?

A. I can.

Q. All right. Mr. Thomas, you have a copy of your hardcover book with you, don't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. Could you just turn to page 14 of your book?

A. Okay.

Q. Yes, do you see the first full paragraph on page 14 that begins "The district attorney"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Could you just read the first sentence out loud, please?

A. Certainly. "The district attorney and his top prosecutor, two police chiefs and a large number of
cops, although so at odds on some points that they almost came to blows, all agreed on one thing - that
probable cause existed to arrest Patsy Ramsey in connection with the death of her daughter."

Q. Is that an accurate statement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, I would like to ask you some questions with respect to that statement. To begin with, if you
wouldn't mind, regarding one of the two police chiefs, could you turn to page 299 of your book?

A. Okay.

Q. Yes. The second paragraph on 299 begins "Even after DeMuth's recital of our shortcomings,"
could you just read those two sentences?

A. "Even after DeMuth's recital of our shortcomings I felt we held a decent hand. Commander
Beckner told me later that he thought we had gone far beyond showing probable cause."

Q. Would you read the next sentence?

A. Certainly. "'I think she (Patty Ramsey) did it,' he said. 'We should just charge them both with
felony murder and aiding and abetting'".

Q. Is that an accurate statement of what you heard?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Did Mr. -- actually Commander Beckner tell you that personally?

A. On more than one occasion.

Q. Could you please explain or elaborate a little further on each occasion how that statement came
about?

A. Certainly. Inside the police department situation room that housed this Ramsey investigation,
there were probably a handful of occasions on which or in which Mark Beckner made statements like
that or similar to that indicating that we had sufficient facts and circumstances rising to a level of
probable cause for an arrest of Patsy Ramsey.

Q. Do you know approximately how many times -- on how many occasions he made that statement?

MR. WOOD: Wait, let me ask you a question if I could, Darnay, for clarification. Are you asking him
for -- I'm sorry, I have to get my mike on. Are you asking him for the statement that Patsy Ramsey
was a killer or for the statement that there was probable cause for an arrest, which is --

MR. HOFFMAN: I'm asking for the statement that is actually in the book which is that there is
probable cause for an arrest.

MR. WOOD: Okay. All right. That's what I wanted to clarify. Thank you.

A. Mr. Hoffman, could you repeat your question to me?

Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) I'm sorry, can you tell me approximately how many, the number, how
many times or how many occasions he made that statement?

A. As I may have mentioned, a handful that I overheard. There was no disputing that among the
detective team. He may have said that outside of my presence. In fact, I think he -- I think he did in
relation to what we're talking about.

Q. But within your own presence, how many times do you think approximately he said that?

MR. WOOD: Again, talking about there is probable cause for an arrest?

MR. HOFFMAN: Probable cause for an arrest, that statement.

MR. WOOD: Thank you.

Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) The gist of that statement that there was probable cause for an arrest?

A. A half a dozen times.

Q. Half a dozen times. Did on any of those occasions, did he explain why he felt there was probable
cause for an arrest?

A. Mr. Hoffman, at that time I think he was sufficiently familiar with the facts of the investigation to
make that conclusion on his own as did, as you previously mentioned, the other detectives in the case.

Q. All right. Do you know if the prior commander, Commander John Eller, ever commented on who
he thought may have in fact either written the ransom note or committed the crime of murdering
JonBenet Ramsey?

MR. WOOD: Do you want him to answer two questions? Why don't you ask him one at a time.

Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Okay. Was there ever an occasion when John Eller expressed an
opinion as to whether or not there was probable cause to arrest someone for the murder of JonBenet
Ramsey?

A. Yeah. And, Mr. Hoffman, if you can direct me back to the first page you asked about.

MR. DIAMOND: Fourteen.

Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Page 14.

A. Yeah. Eller was one of those commanders that I think I -- I'm sorry, I didn't define it as a
commander but Eller was certainly one of the large number of cops, as noted on page 14.

Q. You said there are two police chiefs. Now, I believe that Commander Beckner replaced
Commander Koby; is that correct?

A. Commander Beckner did indeed replace Chief Koby.

Q. All right. Now, was Chief Koby one of the police chiefs you're referring to?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Chief Koby ever express an opinion as to whether or not probable cause existed for someone
to be arrested for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

A. He did; he's one of the twopolice chiefs I'm referring to in thisparagraph.

Q. Do you know the substance of hisstatement; did he ever make a statement likethat in your
presence?

A. He may have but it was certainlyrelayed down through the chain of commandthrough Wickman
to the rest of us that Kobyconcurred and Koby may have very well told methat himself as well.

Q. But you presently don't have any memory of him saying it to you personally; is that correct?

A. Koby?

Q. Yes.

A. Koby was present in briefings whenprobable cause was discussed and Koby was intotal
agreement. So, yeah, I do have arecollection of Koby being present andagreeing with that concept.

Q. Did commander or Chief Koby everindicate who it was that he believed therewas sufficient
probable cause to arrest for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

A. Yes, the discussion was concerning Patricia Ramsey.

Q. And did he express a belief that Patricia Ramsey should be arrested for the murder of JonBenet
Ramsey?

A. I don't know if Koby ever went so far as allowing for an arrest to be made but certainly
concurring on probable cause.

Q. Actually what I'm trying to determine is whether or not he ever actually expressed the belief that
Patsy Ramsey should be arrested based on probable cause for the murder of her daughter?

A. My distinction would be not should be but could be. Koby was not entirely an over-aggressive
individual that was willing to take that next step.

Q. But Commander Koby, based on the evidence that you believe existed in the case, felt that there
was sufficient basis by which Patsy Ramsey could be arrested for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

A. Correct.

Q. Thank you.

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell me who that person was that he thought should or could be arrested -- actually I am
going to rephrase that. Withdraw the question. Did he ever name an individual that he thought could
be arrested for probable cause in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

A. Patricia Ramsey.

Q. Did he ever express that to you personally?

A. Yes.

Q. On more than one occasion?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he ever discuss why he thought probable cause existed for the arrest of Patricia Ramsey for
the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

A. My belief that he, too, was sufficiently familiar with the facts and circumstances that were
sufficient to meet a threshold of probable cause and said that on occasion in the detective briefings that
spring of '97.

Q. Now, with respect to the district attorney, again I'm referring you back to page 14, you begin by
saying "The district attorney and his top prosecutor." Who was the top prosecutor you were referring
to?

A. Pete Hofstrom.

Q. Is it your testimony that Pete Hofstrom believed that probable cause existed for an arrest?

A. Yeah, absolutely. He conceded that there was probable cause but there were some sticking
points beyond that. But as to the issue of probable cause, yeah, that was his express conversation with
me that we had met that burden.

Q. So you actually had a conversation with Pete Hofstrom with respect to the issue of whether
probable cause existed?

A. Several times.

Q. And did he identify the person who he thought could be arrested for probable cause for the
murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

A. We were talking about it in connection with Patricia Ramsey. So I'm assuming he was -- it was
just a two-person conversation at times. So yes.

Q. Do you know whether or not the district attorney, Alex Hunter, ever expressed an opinion as to
whether or not probable cause existed for the arrest of someone in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

A. I'm told he did.

Q. So you, in fact, never heard Alex Hunter express an opinion with respect to that?

A. Only through, for example, Mark Beckner and Tom Wickman.

Q. Exactly what did Mark Beckner say with respect to his understanding of whatAlex Hunter said
regarding the issue of probable cause?

A. Very simply relaying to the detective team that Hunter was aware and knew and conceded that
fact.

Q. Conceded what fact?

A. The fact that probable cause existed for an arrest in this case.

Q. Did -- do you know if Alex Hunter ever identified the person as being the person for which
sufficient probable cause existed for an arrest in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

A. In the context of which it was being presented that's what we were talking about was the
possible arrest of Patsy Ramsey.

Q. I would like you to look at page 327 of your book, if you don't mind, please. And I refer you,
when you found that page, to the very last paragraph at the end of the page, beginning "Alex Hunter."
If you would just read that sentence, that one sentence.

A. "Alex Hunter said he thought Patsy Ramsey was involved."

Q. Okay. Did he actually -- did you actually hear him say that?

MR. WOOD: Hey, Darnay?

MR. HOFFMAN: I'm sorry, yes?

MR. WOOD: Can I ask you to put that sentence in context by having him complete the reading of the
next couple sentences.

MR. HOFFMAN: Sure, I'm sorry.

Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Yes, would you, please, just --

MR. HOFFMAN: How many more sentences do you want him to read, Lin?

MR. WOOD: Just the next one. The next two.

Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right. Read the next one, please, Mr. Thomas.

MR. WOOD: Start from "Alex Hunter" and read down, if you would, through "demeanor."

A. "Alex Hunter said that he thought Patsy Ramsey was involved. That was more than offset by
comments from his staff."

Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right. Were you present when Alex Hunter said that?

A. Yes.

Q. You were. So you actually had an occasion to hear Alex Hunter express a belief with respect to
Patsy Ramsey's involvement in the case?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know when that event was, when this statement was made?

A. May I look at the book for a moment and maybe it will --

Q. I have no problem with that.

A. Okay.

MR. HOFFMAN: I would just like the record to reflect that Mr. Thomas is, in fact, refreshing his
memory with respect to my question by looking at the book.

MR. WOOD: If I can help, it looks to me in context that would have been on one of the evenings in
June of 1998 following the interrogations. I don't know if Mr. Thomas agrees with that or not.

MR. DIAMOND: Who is testifying here?

MR. WOOD: I was trying to move it along. I would be glad to testify if you want to examine me on
another occasion, Mr. Diamond.

MR. DIAMOND: All right.

A. Mr. Hoffman, this was June of 1998.

Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) June of 1998. So you were actually present and heard him make a
statement to that effect; is that correct?

A. Yes.

A. It was my impression and they were very professional in our dealings with them, but I don't think
they ever countered or challenged the fact that the police department had this sufficient probable cause.

Q. Do you know whether or not the FBI actually saw the evidence that the police had with respect
to whether or not there was probable cause to charge someone for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

A. Well, certainly a lot of the facts and the evidence, the factual evidence, from this case was
shared with members of the FBI.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to speak with any of the members of the FBI that were looking at
the evidence?

A. Yeah, on several occasions. And again, I think they always tempered comments and were most
professional. But, again, I, Mr. Hoffman, don't have that specific recollection of an exchange but it was
always my impression that they supported us fully on that.

Q. Do you know whether or not the FBI had occasion to examine the ransom note and handwriting
exemplars of either John or Patsy Ramsey?

A. I don't know whether or not the FBI conducted any examinations of handwriting exemplars, but
they certainly reviewed and studied and discussed with us the ransom note itself.

Q. Did they offer any insight or any analysis of the ransom note?

A. They did.

Q. Do you remember what that analysis consisted of?

A. We had a meeting in Quantico, Virginia and I'm trying to recollect the date. It doesn't come to
me right now. But nonetheless, the ransom note was dissected and profiled and so forth. And certainly
I would suggest that you ask any of them. But it's my recollection of that meeting, of which reports
were written and, you know, there is a lot of information about what went on in those meetings, but
how patently bogus and crafted and stilted and just non authentic this ransom note was.

Q. I would like you to turn, if you will, please, to page 312 of your book.

A. Okay.

Q. And I would like you to look at what looks like to be the third sentence. It begins "'What's going
on in that DA's office.'" If you would read that paragraph -- to the end of that paragraph and then
read the next paragraph.

A. Okay. "'What's going on in that DA's office is a disgrace' one of the FBI agents observed during
our last supper. This case has become an embarrassment to law enforcement. We were all in
agreement. 'It is terribly discouraging how the DA is handling this,' said one Dream Team attorney,
'Hunter is going to outsmart himself on this one.'"

Q. Did you actually hear that statement made.

A. Which statement is that?

Q. The quote from the FBI agent, what's going on is a disgrace?

A. Yes.

Q. Just everything that you read there you have in quotations --

A. Yes.

Q. -- were you actually present at that?

A. I was.

Q. Yes. And is that an accurate recollection of what was said?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know what they were referring to when they said that what was going on in the DA's
office is a disgrace?

A. They were certainly familiar with a lot of the history and the animosity and, you know, the ugly
politics involved in this thing and I don't know to what disgrace they're specifically referring to but I
think it can cover a number of things.

Q. Do you know what they were referring to when they say, quote, Hunter is going to outsmart
himself on this one, unquote?

MR. DIAMOND: That was a Dream Team attorney, not the FBI.

MR. WOOD: Hey, Darnay, why --

MR. HOFFMAN: You're right, that's correct, okay, I'm sorry.

MR. WOOD: Darnay, would it be --

MR. HOFFMAN: I admit that and I'm just going to double back a little bit. Lin, what were you going
to say?

MR. WOOD: I was going to say maybe it would be helpful to figure out which is which if we -- if you
want to ask him who the FBI agent was and who the Dream Team attorney was.

MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, Lin, I was about to get to that.

Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) In fact why don't I just do that, ask you who the FBI agent was, if you
remember?

A. There were at least three agents at that dinner and it may have been Mike Morrow.

Q. Do you know what, is it Mike Morrow?

A. Um-hum.

Q. What his function was with the FBI? I mean what exactly was his involvement in the case?

A. He was or is a special agent with the Federal Bureau based out of, I think they're based out of
Quantico or that Virginia-DC area and he was assigned to that child abduction and serial killer unit.

Q. Did he ever express an opinion as to who he thought committed this crime?

A. Again, I think they were very diplomatic in their response, but I don't recall that specific
conversation with Mr. Morrow. But it certainly wouldn't surprise me for him to say he was consistent
with everyone else.

Q. Okay. So but you have no personal knowledge of that?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. Now, to the second paragraph and, please, excuse me, I'm sorry for having you read that
in a way that could confuse people. That second paragraph says "'It is terribly discouraging how the D
A is handling this,' said one Dream Team attorney. Hunter is going to outsmart himself on this one.'"
Who was the Dream Team attorney who made that statement, if you remember?

A. I believe that was Bob Miller.

Q. Was Bob Miller at this meeting where the prior statement by the FBI agent was made which we
have just referred to?

A. There were several people in this restaurant this particular evening. So I don't know whether or
not he heard, overheard that conversation.

Q. Right. So his statement then may not have been in reaction to the FBI statement; is that correct?

A. Right.

Q. And do you know what he meant when he said that Hunter is going to outsmart himself on this
one?

A. No. I think there are a number of ways to interpret it but it sort of stands alone in my mind.

I'm sure if they investigated ANYONE just a fraction of the way
the Ramseys were investigated, they would have found
probable cause to arrest them.

Abrams said that he wanted the Ramseys thrown in jail, wanted to see the authorities slam the door and sweat a confession out of them. He was absolutely vile in his description of what he thought should happen. I told him I disagreed - - but his arrogant self didn't have a lot to say.

The point I would make here is that the cops and the DA were under a lot of pressure to "get the parents" - the lynch mob was really vocal. Evidence be damned, they didn't need it - - the group was like a gang - - no rhyme or reason, just raw passion and hate.

Even if ALL of that is true----why say the mother did it? Surely they have experience with a lot of the psychos of the world----some sick sadistic pedophile couldn't have written it? Some kid on drugs looking for kicks?