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Conferences jbr_evidence Topic #37
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jamesonadmin
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"Stun Gun Posts"
 
   6 . "BP"
Posted by LovelyPigeon on Jul-16-01 at 01:03 PM (EST)
Smit has plenty of credibility in my book. He's an experienced, accomplished homicide investigator
with an amazing record of solving cases that elude other investigators by paying attention to detail.

Can an Air Taser's electricity cause a "line" of blue area on skin cells? I don't know. It can sure cause
an area of pink or reddish cell discoloration, so I'm not ruling that out so fast.




7 . "BP"
Posted by sharkie on Jul-16-01 at 01:04 PM (EST)
Do you know for a fact that is a blue vein? Have you seen the photo's close up and personal to come
to that conclusion? OR is this your opinion of what you see on the pictures of the stun gun marks?




8 . "LovelyPigeon"
Posted by why_nut on Jul-16-01 at 01:15 PM (EST)
"Can an Air Taser's electricity cause a 'line' of blue area on skin cells? I don't know. It can sure cause
an area of pink or reddish cell discoloration, so I'm not ruling that out so fast."
....................................................................................................
http://www.thedailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2000/02lrams.html

Nebraska Dr. Robert Stratbucker, who has conducted several experiments on stun guns and is
considered a courtroom expert, said he takes "considerable issue" with Smit's stun gun theory.

Stratbucker said it is "pure nonsense" that the stun gun would leave a blue mark in between red
marks on the skin as Smit claimed.

"I have not seen ever, ever any blue marks, and I don't know what the cause of any blue mark
could be," he said.




9 . "Stratbucker's reputation"
Posted by why_nut on Jul-16-01 at 01:20 PM (EST)
http://www.airtaser.com/Med_Stud/overview.html

Dr. Robert Stratbucker, MD, Ph.D., MS, PE is the most respected doctor in non-lethal electronic
weapons testing and safety evaluations. Dr. Stratbucker has written over 23 publications and
presented his work in numerous technical conferences and scientific exhibits. Some of his works
include the following relevant topics: potential cardiac hazards in the use of hand-held electronic law
enforcement devices, relative immunity of the skin and cardiovascular systems to the direct effects
of high voltage, cardiac arrhythmia and defibrillation, current density distributions during
transcutaneous current pacing, and electrical characteristics of the skin.




10 . "Stratbucker pig experiment"
Posted by why_nut on Jul-16-01 at 01:25 PM (EST)
http://www.airtaser.com/Med_Stud/stratbkr/page1.htm



11 . "Why_Nut"
Posted by Shera on Jul-16-01 at 01:48 PM (EST)
LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-01 AT 02:01 PM (EST)

Just because something is in print, does not make it correct.


According to page three of this report, in the DISCUSSION paragraph, he clearly states "..in the
recomended manner' who is to say this particular item was used in the "recomended manner" of which
he has performed his own tests?

Too many variables.

He further states "..in an adult" which he is referring to a fully grown ADULT and NOT a CHILD. (That
would be like debating the effectiveness of medication when dosage is determined by weight and size
and giving the same dosage to a child AND a fully grown man and expecting the same test result.)




12 . "Stratbucker & stun gun research"
Posted by LovelyPigeon on Jul-16-01 at 02:14 PM (EST)
is the expert who testified spring 2001 at the trial of the killer of Karen Lynn Styles in North Carolina.
Stratbucker identified marks on the body (which had been tied to a tree for 5 weeks before being
found) from crime scene photos (no close-up autopsy photos were taken of the thighs) taken at the
scene of crime. Doing so as an expert, in federal court, confirms the fact that experts can testify
using photos only, even if they had not been at crime scene, at autopsy, or when an exhumation was
not done.

Stratbucker's study that why_nut posted was in response to a suit in California claiming that a police
stun gun caused cardiac arrest and death to a police suspect.

Here are two more of Stratbucker's published studies on the effects of stun guns. Note that "burns"
are never what occured in any of the experiments. And that Dr. Michael Doberson is a co-author of
the 2nd study listed.

http://www.paktronix.com/stun93.html
THE RELATIVE IMMUNITY OF THE SKIN AND CARDIOVASCULAR SYSTEM TO THE DIRECT
EFFECTS OF HIGH VOLTAGE - HIGH FREQUENCY COMPONENT ELECTRICAL PULSES. 1993 :
Robert A. Stratbucker, Health Tech. Corp., 10744 West Center Road, Omaha, NE 68124
Matthew G. Marsh, Paktronix, 1506 North 59th Street, Omaha, NE 68104

2. Physiologic Measurements:


a. Skin - Twenty 21-50 year old male police officer volunteers were exposed to 3 second bursts of
the pulse generator output delivered to the volar aspect of one forearm. A non-electric pressure
injury of a similar degree was applied to the contralateral arm. These sessions took place during
regularly scheduled training programs specifically related to familiarization with the devices. Color
photographs of the exposed sites were taken at 1 and 10 minutes post shock and again at 24 hours.
~~~
2. Physiologic measurements


a. Skin - All twenty subjects exhibited the typical "signature response", specifically a punctate
reddening of the skin at 10 minutes post shock limited to a 3-5mm diameter circle directly under each
probe. Five out of 20 showed small wheals at the stimulus site. All of these hive-like elevations had
disappeared at 1 to 2 hours. Only one case, a man of mediterranean ancestry, showed residual
markings at 24 hours and these were gone in 2 days. No burns or other permanent markings were
ever noted.

Robert A. Stratbucker, Health Tech. Corp., 10744 West Center Road, Omaha, NE 68124
Matthew G. Marsh, Paktronix, 1506 North 59th Street, Omaha, NE 68104

http://www.paktronix.com/lewis95.html
FORENSIC BIOENGINEERING
A CASE STUDY IN ELECTRICAL EMISSIONS AND CAPITAL CRIME

Robert A. Stratbucker, Health Tech. Corp., 10744 West Center Road, Omaha, NE 68124
Matthew G. Marsh, Paktronix, 1506 North 59th Street, Omaha, NE 68104
Michael J. Dobersen, Coroner - Medical Examiner, Arapahoe County, Littleton, CO 80120
Susan Kitchen, Agent, Colorado Bureau of Investigation, Littleton, CO 80120~~
We present the physics and patho-physiologic effects of such LTLWs on experimental animal subjects
and attempt to correlate reactions that characterize such skin responses in humans both living and
dead. We discuss and compare the relationship between electrically produced signature effect and
mechanically produced Triple Response, an injury phenomenon characteristic of many tissue surfaces
such as skin...~~~

Our report deals primarily with certain cutaneous manifestations of LTLW electrical shocks,
particularly the reproducibly characteristic "signature effect" on the skin. This signature effect almost
always contains the three elements required of the well known Lewis Triple Response namely:

1. The rapidly formed (3-10 seconds) red spots directly beneath two or more points of energy
application whose mechanism is capillary dilatation from endogenous histamine like substances
released in the localized region of mild injury;

2. The "flare" or expanding reddening response due to neighboring cutaneous arteriolar dilatation from
localized post synaptic antidromic nerve impulses (axon reflex);

3. The formation of wheals within the reaction sites due to increased vascular permeability in the
dilated region.

the signature response to the typical low energy level electric current injury from a stun gun burst is
arrested within seconds of the abolition of vascular perfusion. It follows that any residual signature
response from application of a stun gun to a victim's body would necessarily have to have been
initiated before death and not afterwards. Furthermore, post shock subsidence of the signature
effect is arrested and "frozen" in place if death occurs within minutes of a well developed signature
response.



13 . "Has Doberson found "blue" marks"
Posted by LovelyPigeon on Jul-16-01 at 02:18 PM (EST)
occur when stun gun experiments with the Air Taser 34000 was pressed into the skin of pigs? I don't
know, as he hasn't said.

Is the occurence of a blue "line" just a guess on Smit's part? Could be.

But since physical evidence concerning the stun gunning of small children is seriously lacking, I'm not
going to rule out the possibility that electricity from a stun gun probe might cause a bluing affect of
skin between the probes.

Just because Doberson hasn't made that a focus of his experimental procedures and hasn't seen it
doesn't mean it can't occur.




14 . "photo from a Doberson experiment"
Posted by LovelyPigeon on Jul-16-01 at 03:38 PM (EST)
http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/stungun_pigskin_backmarks.html




16 . "LovelyPigeon"
Posted by why_nut on Jul-16-01 at 05:14 PM (EST)
"But since physical evidence concerning the stun gunning of small children is seriously lacking, I'm not
going to rule out the possibility that electricity from a stun gun probe might cause a bluing affect of
skin between the probes."
....................................................................................................
You seem to have painted yourself into a corner.

If the dermal effects of stun guns on children are significantly different from the results of
experiments conducted on adult skin, then Dobersen has no credibility to stand upon in claiming that
he could see JonBenet's autopsy photos and decide that a stun gun was used.

If the dermal effects of stun guns on children are not significantly different from the results of
experiments on adult skin, then Stratbucker has a great deal of credibility to stand upon when he
says that he has never seen the blue artifact that Smit has gone out of his way to call attention to
as proof of use of a stun gun.



15 . "Blue line stupidity"
Posted by Chokote on Jul-16-01 at 05:13 PM (EST)
The blue line is one of several veins on her back. LP, why don't you post the photo from the Today
show that shows all the veins?

This discussion is as stupid and Smit's statement.




17 . "JMO"
Posted by mommyof2 on Jul-16-01 at 06:07 PM (EST)
I do believe that JonBenet was stunned, and I do believe she was stunned by an intruder..However,
when Smit showed the picture of the blue line, I also saw several other blue lines on her skin that
weren't directly near the stun marks. So I'm not sure that the line was caused by the stun gun,
however, I do believe that the red spots were..




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LovelyPigeon
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1. "Doberson's expertise"
In response to message #0
 
   Doberson has experience with finding stun gun injuries at autopsy. Since the Boggs case, many more cases across the country have involved stun gun injuries identified at or after autopsies, based on photographs.

Whether or not stun guns affect children and/or their skin more adversely than adults has not been addressed by Doberson--it's been questioned by LP.

Identifying stun gun marks after autopsy based on photographs only and not exhumation is not a legal problem at all. Precedent has been set by Stratbucker himself, as well as by other experts in cases like this one in which medical examiner Dr. James Gill testified in court, identifying photographs of stun gun marks:

http://www.pressrepublican.com/Archive/2000/01_2000/011920002.htm

Doctors: Stun gun used
on Mrs. Glanda
By SAUL G. FERRER
Staff Writer

ELIZABETHTOWN — Jeannine Glanda was shocked repeatedly with a stun gun before her death, a medical expert testified Tuesday.

Dr. Barbara Wolf testified that, in addition to being choked and drowning, Mrs. Glanda appeared to have been shocked with a stun gun......


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BP
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2. "Doberson"
In response to message #1
 
   is also on record as stating that you can't tell if a stun gun was used by looking at photographs. Now that's exactly what he has done.

The man has completely discredited himself with his own words.


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jamesonadmin
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3. "No BP"
In response to message #2
 
   Please do not spin BORG and pass misinformation here - - doesn't work.

From the 2nd documentary:

NARRATOR - The Boulder police rejected Smit evidence about a stun gun. They spoke to Colorado's leading expert pathologist
Mike Dobersen - and claimed he discounted the possibility.

MIKE DOBERSEN - That's right - and that was something of a mistatement since my real conclusion was that I couldn't, at that
time, say whether it was a stun gun injury or not because we had to have a weapon to compare it to.

NARRATOR - When Smit brought him the Air Tazer stun gun, Doberson took a different position.

MIKE DOBERSEN - Lou had found a weapon with characteristics which fit as exactly as you could expect, the injuries on
JonBenét's body.

NARRATOR - Since then Mike Dobersen has conducted experiments on anaesthetized pigs. The Tazer stun gun exactly
replicated the injuries on JonBenét and the distance, 3.5 centimeters, between those injuries.

MIKE DOBERSEN - My experiments, and the observations that we made and all the work that's been done, I feel that I can
testify to a reasonably degree of medical certainty that these are stun gun injuries.


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mommyof2
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4. "simple"
In response to message #3
 
   Doberson could not tell if it was a stun gun with the evidence the BPD presented to him because he wasn't presented ALL the evidence..
When Smit presented the evidence, Doberson had something to compare it to..In my mind, it makes Doberson even more credible in the fact, he will not make a decision on something unless presented all the evidence and can make a sound judgement.


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mommyof2
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5. "question"
In response to message #4
 
   If JonBenet's body were exhumed in the near future, would it be possible to tell if a stun gun were used?


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LovelyPigeon
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6. "mo2"
In response to message #5
 
   I haven't seen a definitive answer to that question. It would probably depend on the quality of the embalming.

However, it's not necesssary to exhume. Court cases around the country have since allowed experts testify & identify stun gun marks based solely on photographs taken of the victim rather than exhumation being needed.


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mommyof2
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7. "Lp"
In response to message #6
 
   "However, it's not necesssary to exhume. Court cases around the country
have since allowed experts testify & identify stun gun marks based solely on
photographs taken of the victim rather than exhumation being needed."

This obviously hasn't been enough for the BPD. I'm sure the reason is because it doesn't fit their theory.. BUT, if she were exhumed and they could know definatively that she was stunned, the BPD would have to acknowledge that. Couldn't this change quite a few things?


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LovelyPigeon
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8. "mommy2"
In response to message #7
 
   Unless the BPD did the exhumation and testing of tissue, the results wouldn't be accepted by them. So unless the BPD wanted very badly to exhume, it's not going to happen now.

The evidence that a stun gun was used is already sufficient but of course the BPD is refusing to take a close look since, you're right, it does not fit their pet theories.


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mommyof2
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9. "a thought"
In response to message #8
 
   It's quite possible that the BPD hasn't ordered an exhumation because they don't really want to know the answer to the stun gun question!


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qsuss
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10. "exhumation"
In response to message #9
 
   It constatnly amazes me how the authorities have become the bad guys in all of this. If you honestly think the BPD would NOT exhume because they feared seeing proof that a stun gun was used, then you are one dumb bunny! Good God, just because we yap about this on the internet does NOT make us authorities or more knowledgable than those doing the investigation. The stun gun really doesn't matter anyway because those that believe the parents were involved DON'T view the stun gun as an issue. Stun gunning someone is hardly more brutal than cracking their head in half and leaving a furrow round their neck. The magical, fantasy stun gun doesn't change squat!


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mommyof2
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11. "Qsuss"
In response to message #10
 
   I agree that stun gunning someone can't compare to the hit on the head or the garrotte..Those things were very brutal, deadly.
However, in my mind (my dumb bunny mind that is,lol) if they can prove without a doubt she was stunned, yet couldn't find a stun gun in the house, nor figure out why a parent would need to silence their child to take them to their basement, it would maybe open the BPD's minds to consider the intruder theory..


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qsuss
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12. "mommyof2"
In response to message #11
 
   The point I'd like to make is that despite peoples' dislike for the way this case is going, there is ample reason to believe the Ramseys know more than they've said. Given the number of authorities involved in this case, it's unlikely that they refuse to look at suspects just because they WANT the Ramseys to be guilty. I am Borg but that does not mean that I am not willing to consider other possibilities. Imagine yourself in that situation, you would not stonewall the police unless you had something to hide. There is too much in the way of evidence and behavior to point to the family to dismiss the possibility of their involvement. I don't profess to know if they're guilty or innocent but I have my opinion. The police who investigated this crime obviously know more than we do. Rather than believing in a police conspiracy to nail the Ramseys, I tend to see a political movement to prevent their being brought to justice.


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LovelyPigeon
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13. "no stonewall by Ramseys"
In response to message #0
 
   John and Patsy have given the police upwards of 60 hours in interviews. Burke has given, on three occasions, more than 10 hours total.

If the Ramseys knew anything related to this case, they've already told police, private investigators and lawyers in the many, many hours of question/answer already done.


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LovelyPigeon
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14. "Thomas, about exhumation"
In response to message #0
 
   Thomas said that BPD decided not to exhume the body to check for stun gun evidence because it would be bad public relations for the police, digging up a dead child. So they didn't do it.


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mommyof2
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15. "Lp"
In response to message #14
 
   You mean the BPD were concerned more about the way they are seen by the public than possibly finding evidence that can be used to prosecute a murderer?? Why does that bother me so much?!


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Maikai
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16. "Perhaps that's the same reason"
In response to message #15
 
   there were all those leaks earlyon. To show that the reason the police didn't follow proper procedures was because the Ramseys fooled them with a fake ransom note. Takes the heat off the police and puts in on the Ramseys. It would have been ok not to exhume if the police and medical examiner would have pursued what they needed to (ie: experiments) to determine that there was a high likelihood a stun gun was used.

As it is, the police some day will have to come up with what else could have caused those marks, and explain why they didn't pursue what Doberson and Lou Smit did later. They won't be able to do it.


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LovelyPigeon
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17. "aligning the Air Taser"
In response to message #0
 
   I posted this on another thread, but since this one is Stun Gun posts, here it is again:

http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/stungun_airtaser_compare_align.html

Dr Doberson has stated that the marks on JonBenét and the probes on the Air Taser are about 1mm different in alignment. I think the combination of the two photos I overlaid are true to that measurement.


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jamesonadmin
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18. "page on stun gun marks"
In response to message #17
 
   I have put up a page on the stun gun injuries.

If BORG wants to put up a different page, I will view it. Since we are all using the same crime scene photos, I believe they will come to the same conclusions we have.

Coffman and the others can SAY all they want that it doesn't match - - Steve Tuttle from Air Taser saw Lou Smit on Today and HE sia he just doesn't know.... but he is not denying it could have been his product.


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