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Subject: "Footprints in the snow" Archived thread - Read only
 
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docG
unregistered user
Nov-09-02, 11:01 PM (EST)
 
"Footprints in the snow"
 
   From one of the first search warrants issued in the Ramsey case:

"Sgt. Reichenbach noted in his report that there was a very light dusting of snow and frost on the exposed grass in the yard outside the Ramsey home. Some of the grass and yard was covered with snow from previous snowfalls and this snow was described as crusty and measuring one-two inches deep. Sgt. Reichenbach states that he saw no fresh foot prints in any of the snow or on the frost on the grass."

Lou Smit has presented photos of the area around the house showing patches of snow, with many areas free of such patches. He has presented these photos as evidence that early police reports regarding lack of footprints "in the snow" were erroneous. I'm wondering whether he read the actual police reports, or was simply reacting to vague media reports. It seems clear from the information provided in the warrant that the patches of snow shown in Smit's photos were observed by Reichenbach as "snow from previous snowfalls" and that this snow should NOT be confused with the "very light dusting of snow and frost," something that would not be likely to show up in a photo -- and might well have melted prior to the time the photo was taken. Reichenbach saw "no fresh foot prints in ANY of the snow OR on the frost on the grass." In other words his observations were based NOT just on the obvious patches of snow, but also on the far less obvious "light dusting of snow and frost." NOWHERE in the vicinity did he see fresh prints in ANY of this.

Is Smit unaware of the exact wording of Reichenbach's report? Is he spinning the evidence to bolster his theory? In any case, it seems clear from the information in the warrant that there WAS in fact a good deal of snow and/or frost on the ground that morning and that the early report of "no footprints" does seem in fact to have been accurate.


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-09-02, 11:21 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Footprints in the snow"
In response to message #0
 
   Lou Smit lived in Colorado Springs,not Boulder. He wasn't involved in the beginning but he read the same newspaper storieswe all read and THEY told us that there were no footprints in the snow.

Lou was called,given a brief outline of what the evidence was, and he was told there were no footprints in the snow. He himself says that he figured that meant it was an inside job.

After he was hired, he read the police reports and saw the photos and realized there was little snow on the yard, none on the path, and the fact that the cop noted no fresh prints in the existing snow did NOT mean no one had walked to the house - or left it.

Lou isn't spinning - - he backed up what he said with the crime scene photos taken on the 26th. They are posted on the show transcript page.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-09-02, 11:40 PM (EST)
 
2. "RE: Footprints in the snow"
In response to message #1
 
   Sorry Jameson,

>After he was hired, he read the police reports and saw the
>photos and realized there was little snow on the yard, none
>on the path, and the fact that the cop noted no fresh prints
>in the existing snow did NOT mean no one had walked to the
>house - or left it.

The "cop" noted no fresh prints ANYWHERE, not just in the patches of snow, but in the "light dusting of snow" and in the "frost." Sgt. Reichenbach was THERE. He was not evaluating the scene from a photograph. He could see not only the snow visible in the photo, but also a "light dusting of snow and frost" which cannot be seen in the photo.

>Lou isn't spinning - - he backed up what he said with the
>crime scene photos taken on the 26th. They are posted on
>the show transcript page.

I've seen these photos and they tell us NOTHING about the "light dusting of snow and frost," ONLY the older patches of snow from a previous snowfall. There is NO reason to dispute Reichenbach's report and in my opinion Smit's use of these photos to discredit this "cop" is simply irresponsible.


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-09-02, 11:45 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Footprints in the snow"
In response to message #2
 
   The cop should have noted that the walkways were clear - he did not.

I do wish the first police report - and the revisions - were public.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-10-02, 00:01 AM (EST)
 
4. "RE: Footprints in the snow"
In response to message #3
 
   Jameson, I think even you will have to agree that Smit's use of these photos is misleading, regardless of the condition of the walkways, which is a different issue. He takes the photos showing patches of snow and uses them to discredit a police report which stresses a "light dusting of snow and frost." The implication is that the police didn't know what they were doing or were presenting misleading information, whereas in fact it is Smit's photo "evidence" which is misleading.

As far as the walkways are concerned, you may well be right, up to a point. The police report mentions "dustings of snow and frost" only on the grassy areas, not the walkway, true. But the area around the basement window grate IS grassy. It's very hard to see how an intruder could have lifted that grate, put it aside, and then lowered himself into the window well without leaving any footprint or any mark from the grate in the "light dusting of snow and frost" on that area of grass.


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-10-02, 00:15 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Footprints in the snow"
In response to message #4
 
   The photos were taken early on. Smit had access to all the photos and police reports - - he entered all of the statements into his data bank and cross referenced all of it. There is no reason to think there was snow near that window - that area happens to clear out quick - - I guess because of all the glass reflecting the light and heat there. (And don't forget heat going out the broken/open window.) The photos showed NO SNOW - not even in the window well. Smit was not misleading - the newspapers were.


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Maikai
unregistered user
Nov-10-02, 02:32 AM (EST)
 
6. "It was dark when Reichenbach arrived at"
In response to message #5
 
   the house and there weren't searchlights brought in. The bricks would have remained warm from the sun....and any frost could have melted. There just wasn't any snow or frost of substance that morning in the back of the house....and on that side would quickly have melted away.

They missed an open window in the basement...missed searching the room JBR was in early in the morning---why would anyone think they got the "no footprints in the snow" right, and did a thorough search in the dark?


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LovelyPigeon
unregistered user
Nov-10-02, 08:35 AM (EST)
 
7. "Even Steve Thomas concedes"
In response to message #6
 
   in his book that the sidewalks were clear and that Reichenbach noted that his own feet left no traces on the sidewalks.

Smit isn't misrepresenting the lack of snow or the clear sidewalks. He has crime scene photos to back up what he concluded: An intruder could have come onto the Ramsey property from the alley and walked on clear sidewalks all the way around the house.


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jamesonadmin
unregistered user
Nov-10-02, 10:18 AM (EST)
 
8. "NO fresh prints"
In response to message #7
 
   The Whites and Fernies had gotten into the house - the cops were in there - - they left no prints either.

The footprints in the snow became a non-issue long ago. The story of the importance of no footprints in the snow appears to have been part of "The Plan".


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Mikiemoderator
unregistered user
Nov-10-02, 10:58 AM (EST)
 
9. "RE: NO fresh prints"
In response to message #8
 
   My interpretation is that the crime occurred near and just after midnight. I do not know what time the snow fell. However, I believe it could have easily snowed after the crime, which would result in covering any tracks in snow made prior to that. Does anyone know the exact time of snow?

Is it possible that the perpetrators did not leave any trace in the snow because they were gone before the snow fell? The answer depends on the time of the snow. But the answer is yes, unless someone can prove that it did not snow after midnight.


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jamesonadmin
unregistered user
Nov-10-02, 05:07 PM (EST)
 
10. "never get an answer there"
In response to message #9
 
   I heard there was a very light dusting of snow - - parts of Boulder were hit, other parts didn't get anything and no one knows for a fact what happened at 755 15th Street.

The time for the dusting is uncertain.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-10-02, 06:59 PM (EST)
 
11. "RE: never get an answer there"
In response to message #10
 
   >I heard there was a very light dusting of snow - - parts of
>Boulder were hit, other parts didn't get anything and no one
>knows for a fact what happened at 755 15th Street.

Are you suggesting the BPD already "had it in" for the Ramseys as early as 6 AM on the 26th? Reichenbach reported "a light dusting of snow and frost" on the grassy areas surrounding the Ramsey house at that time. What basis do you have for doubting his report? Are you claiming Lou Smit's photos show only PATCHES of such dusting and frost? They show snowy patches for sure -- from a PREVIOUS snowfall, as reported by Reichenbach.

And by the way, if you look at the sky in the photos Smit used, you'll see it is full daylight. Reichenbach made his observations at 6 AM on one of the shortest days of the year, most likely prior to sunrise. And by the way, policemen carry flashlights and are capable of making observations at such a time.

>The time for the dusting is uncertain.

This is true. But when we combine Reichenbach's report regarding the snow and frost with the observations from virtually every policeman on the scene that morning, that there was NO sign of a breakin, then it becomes very difficult indeed to imagine an intruder on those premises at ANY time that night. Not only no footprints in the dusting of snow and frost. But also no sign of disturbance around the window grate. No footprints (in snow, frost, grass or dirt), no marks, imprints, dirt, plant residue, etc. left by the grate, which would have to have been displaced so the intruder could enter. Where did he put it? Where was it sitting while the intruder spent all that time in the house? And how/why did it get placed BACK where it belonged after he left? (Are you suggesting the intruder would take the trouble to replace the grate in order to hide the fact that he had broken in -- and yet at the same time leave the window ajar, leave the suitcase in place -- and leave a three page note affirming his presence?)

Jameson, you are very good at backtracking your way out of the very difficult problems posed by the intruder theory. If there are police reports of snow, you refer to the patches of snow in Smit's photos. When you're reminded that the policeman reported a dusting of snow and frost that would not have shown up on the photos, then you point out that the walkways were clear. When reminded that the area around the grate would NOT have been clear of the dusting of snow and frost, then you question the time the dusting of snow and frost would have fallen. And no doubt, when faced with the fact that there was no sign of disturbance around the grate, you will no doubt remind us of all the people who had access to keys.

At least admit there is a PROBLEM, for God's sake!!!! Why are you shutting your eyes to important facts in this case?


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-10-02, 09:01 PM (EST)
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13. "Docg"
In response to message #11
 
   Q. Are you suggesting the BPD already "had it in" for the
Ramseys as early as 6 AM on the 26th?
A. NO

Q. Reichenbach reported "a light dusting of snow and frost" on the grassy areas surrounding the Ramsey house at that time. What basis do you have for doubting his report?
A. I haven't seen his report, have you? If so, please share! I doubt the spin of reporters much more than I doubt official documents.


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BraveHeart
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Nov-11-02, 01:45 AM (EST)
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18. "RE: DocG, time of dusting"
In response to message #11
 
   The time of dusting of snow is reported to be after 2:00 am per weather almanac for Boulder, Colorado. I believe the TOD is estimated to be anywhere from about 10:00 pm December 25th. to 5:00 am the 26th., with the preponderance of evidence indicating a death between 1:00 and 2:00 am.

This tells me that the perp was gone before the snow fell.

There was no light until day break at 7:30 am, and there was no moon at 6:00 am, also per weather almanac.

This tells me that officer R. walked around the house in the dark looking for evidence with a flashlight. That he didn't see any footprints under these conditions doesn't surprise me. Besides, I believe you'll find a lot of leaves and pine needles under those trees on the sides of the house which coupled with the fact that the ground was dry shouldn't allow for many prints. Otherwise, after daybreak, you should have been able to see officer R's and Fernie's footprints all around the house.

The statement that there was no footprints in the snow is a deliberate misrepresentation of the situation. The spin is that there could have been no footprints and consequently, no intruder. The fact is that an intruder could have gone in and left without leaving any prints. This doesn't by itself prove there was one but it sure doesn't prove there wasn't one, which is what the BPD wnated people to believe.


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LovelyPigeon
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Nov-10-02, 07:59 PM (EST)
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12. "The problem lies"
In response to message #0
 
   only in clinging stubbornly to an idea that there should have been "footprints in the snow" if there was an intruder.

Reichenbach, according to Steve Thomas book (hardback p19), walked around outside and noted that his own walking on the sidewalks and driveway left NO impressions.

There are sidewalks, as shown in the crime scene photos, all the way around the house, but most importantly, from the alley there is paved driveway, then paved sidewalk that leads to the basement window found open that morning.

If an intruder walked from the alley onto the driveway onto the sidewalk, there would be NO footprints, as evidence by officer Reichenbach when he walked on the same driveway and sidewalk early that morning.


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Karen
unregistered user
Nov-10-02, 10:09 PM (EST)
 
14. "Ferney"
In response to message #12
 
   WAs it John Ferney who said he came to the back door when he first arrived and that his footprints should have been all over the place in the snow? I assume he knows whether or not he walked in snow and he seems to think his footprints should be able to be seen. This is so confusing.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-10-02, 11:51 PM (EST)
 
15. "Source of report"
In response to message #14
 
   Jameson, please reread my initial post. I was quoting from one of the police warrants. I had assumed you were familiar with this material. This is an official document, NOT a media report. It can be accessed via the Court TV Website, but here's the exact link:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jonbenet/charlevoix3.html

LP, no one is disputing that the walkways were probably clear. But the walkway does NOT extend directly to the grid over the basement window. That grid is surrounded by a grassy area. If anyone had entered or left via the grid, they would have left visible traces for sure. In the dusting of snow, in the frost and in the grass itself. The grid itself must have been covered with dirt particles, some of which would have fallen off when it was displaced. This is NOT rocket science. Anyone entering via that window would have left traces outside. None were found!


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Shelby
unregistered user
Nov-11-02, 00:19 AM (EST)
 
16. "Karen you are right"
In response to message #15
 
   In PMPT, Schiller reports John Fernie arriving first at the back patio door on the south side of the house, and finding it locked. He then ran around the house to enter the main door. His footprints were not noticed, either.


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Sooty
unregistered user
Nov-11-02, 01:32 AM (EST)
 
17. "RE: Karen you are right"
In response to message #16
 
   Doc, if no-one entered or left by the basement window, why would there have been green foliage caught under the grate? Was it a set up by someone in the family to make it look like an intruder had entered that way? If so, why not just leave the grate partly off to make it look even more convincing?
Why couldnt the intruder have entered in the early evening BEFORE it snowed? No snow....no prints. I dont believe he exited that way....doesnt mean I dont believe he ever existed.


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BraveHeart
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Nov-11-02, 01:50 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: Source of report"
In response to message #15
 
   Doctor: IF you had watched the recent television broadcasts you would know that there was evidence that the grate had been moved/lifted and that some one had lowered themselves thru the middle window and possibly left dusty smeared prints on the window. All described by Detective Smit.

If you read the weather almanac I beleive you will not find any mention of frost. Note the previous reply on the weather.


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Maikai
unregistered user
Nov-11-02, 08:59 AM (EST)
 
20. "There are definite traces the grid was"
In response to message #19
 
   disturbed---as pointed out, the bright green foliage caught underneath the grid is apparent in the photos. The leaves and dirt were brushed aside by the middle window....leaves found on the floor by the suitcase. It's only a very short walk to the brick walkways around the back of the house. If the areas around the house hadn't beem tromped on by numerous people, they may have found some evidence ouside of the house. At 6am it was too dark. I don't recall the alley or neighbors property being searched, either...or any searches conducted in a gridlike fashion. Any frost would quickly dissipate with the morning sun. I think Reichenbach was looking for obvious signs in the snow, in a quick search, and just didn't find anything.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-11-02, 10:46 AM (EST)
 
21. "The grid"
In response to message #20
 
   Before I get any farther into this thread, I want to thank Jameson for making this public forum available. While I have sometimes criticized her for her unwillingness to acknowledge the significance of certain evidence, I have always respected her for posting every sort of evidence and viewpoint, no matter how critical of "the Ramseys."

As far as the grid is concerned, my understanding is that this object was examined by the police very early on for any sign that it might have been displaced the previous night. No such sign was found. In fact, an intact spider web was found, woven between the grid and the surrounding turf. The photo in question was, as I understand it, taken AFTER the police had lifted and examined the grid.

Smit has clearly played fast and loose with the photographic evidence, using what suits him, ignoring what doesn't, interpreting everything very much his own way. This is really the main point of my initial post. The police report I cited does not, of course, in itself constitute proof that there was no intruder. But it DOES tell us something about the quality of Smit's "photo evidence." Very poor quality, if you ask me.

As far as the situation in and around the basement window, there has been a tendency on the part of Ramsey defenders to fixate on certain things and ignore others. It is certainly true that an area of the window well adjacent to the broken window was relatively clean of debris. And, under certain circumstances, we might be able to confidently conclude this is evidence of a breakin at that point. But there was NO evidence that ANY dirt, dust, peeling paint, etc., from the window frame or sill was displaced. Given this fact, the absence of debris in the well takes on a very different meaning. Since the grid was undisturbed AND the window itself was undisturbed, then the disturbance at the window well area is very hard to interpret as anything other than staging by someone inside the house. It looks like someone scooped some debris from the well by hand and dropped it on the floor. The same person could have positioned the suitcase under the window.

This situation is a serious problem for ANY intruder theory. Even if one discounts Smit's (extremely unlikely) window entry theory and moves to a possible door entry by someone with a key, one still has to account for the absence of debris at the window well and its presence on the floor.


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-11-02, 11:05 AM (EST)
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22. "Docg"
In response to message #21
 
   The warrants - - when all this started I thought cops were honest and played fair. Now I look for semantics. And evidence to support what they said.

IF there was a dusting of snow, it could have happened after the intruder left and so any lack of footprints would prove nothing.

BUT - - if there was a dusting of snow - - why didn't the cop see Fernie's prints? He got in the house after walking from the back alley to the south door and then to the front.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-11-02, 11:27 AM (EST)
 
23. "Jameson"
In response to message #22
 
   Are you suggesting Fernie arrived prior to the arrival of the police?


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BraveHeart
unregistered user
Nov-11-02, 03:18 PM (EST)
 
24. "RE: Arrival"
In response to message #23
 
   Fernie arrived before officer R. and after officer French.


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BraveHeart
unregistered user
Nov-11-02, 03:20 PM (EST)
 
25. "RE: footprints"
In response to message #24
 
   I posted this above out of order, and it may be overlooked:

The time of dusting of snow is reported to be after 2:00 am per weather almanac for Boulder, Colorado. I believe the TOD is estimated to be anywhere from about 10:00 pm December 25th. to 5:00 am the 26th., with the preponderance of evidence indicating a death between 1:00 and 2:00 am.
This tells me that the perp was gone before the snow fell.

There was no light until day break at 7:30 am, and there was no moon at 6:00 am, also per weather almanac.

This tells me that officer R. walked around the house in the dark looking for evidence with a flashlight. That he didn't see any footprints under these conditions doesn't surprise me. Besides, I believe you'll find a lot of leaves and pine needles under those trees on the sides of the house which coupled with the fact that the ground was dry shouldn't allow for many prints. Otherwise, after daybreak, you should have been able to see officer R's and Fernie's footprints all around the house.

The statement that there was no footprints in the snow is a deliberate misrepresentation of the situation. The spin is that there could have been no footprints and consequently, no intruder. The fact is that an intruder could have gone in and left without leaving any prints. This doesn't by itself prove there was one but it sure doesn't prove there wasn't one, which is what the BPD wnated people to believe.


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jamesonadmin
unregistered user
Nov-11-02, 05:00 PM (EST)
 
26. "To be fair..."
In response to message #25
 
   The cops who got to the house that morning were in WAY over their head. they had NO idea how to proceed and they weren't getting help from their superiors.

JonBenét was the only murder thay had had all year - - they weren't even THINKING murder. And, truth be told, they weren't even properly investigating a kidnapping! They should never have let all those people have total access to that house - - who knows what evidence was altered or destroyed - - or originated! (The photos of the pineapple and glass were NOT taken until hours after the friends and family and victims' advocates arrived. I would love to see their statements on the pineapple and glass - - and the other items on the table.)

I know they were dealing with a sitution totally beyond their experience - - and what they wrote down, not on the spot but hours later - may not be complete or totally in line with what really happened.

Really need to compare all the statements and have a good investigator get their stories. Then look at the photos and determine what the truth is.


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Mikiemoderator
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Nov-11-02, 05:02 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: footprints"
In response to message #25
 
   Braveheart:
That's exactly what I was saying. If the snow fell after the perps left then obviously they would not leave footprints in the snow.
The 2:00 am is probably not exact but it is good enough to force any reasonable mind to agree that it is misrepresentation indeed to say that no footprints means no intruder.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-11-02, 07:59 PM (EST)
 
28. "RE: footprints"
In response to message #27
 
   None of you are getting it. Reichenbach did NOT report that there had been no intruder. And I never stated that the absence of footprints proved there had been no intruder. The policeman was simply reporting his observations. He was, in fact, one of the very few witnesses to the condition of the house so early on. And a trained witness to boot. I think we can safely assume he had a flashlight -- and knew how to use it. As I understand it, French and Reichenbach were the first to arrive on the scene. I've never read any reference to Fernie having arrived after French and prior to Reichenbach. Please state your source. And if Fernie's prints had been there, it seems logical to assume Reichenbach would have taken them into account.

What MOST bothers me is the suggestion that Reichenbach was incompetent, that the photos released by Smit somehow invalidate Reichenbach's report. That's simply NOT true. And I think Smit owes Reichenbach an apology.

The absence of prints in the "dusting of snow and frost" that morning is only one element of many that have to be evaluated in order to determine the likelihood that an intruder could have been present that night. When ALL the various pieces of evidence are put together, we have a situation that points MUCH more strongly to insider staging than to an intruder. See my earlier posts for the details -- and the reasoning. No one piece of evidence does that. It's only when we put them all together that a pattern emerges.


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-11-02, 09:03 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: footprints"
In response to message #28
 
   But - - be honest - - when the cops are deliberately putting out misinformation and innuendo to put pressure on the Ramseys, what are we to believe?

When I found out initial reports were altered days after being filed, I was very, very upset.

I would love to see each and every one of them deposed under oath so a record is there for all to see.


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Shelby
unregistered user
Nov-11-02, 09:03 PM (EST)
 
30. "Staging"
In response to message #28
 
   OK, I am an evil parent who just lost control and accidentally killed my kid. So I decide to make it look like someone somehow got into my huge house, snatched my daughter from her bed to kidnap her, drug her to the basement, and accidentally killed her before fleeing the scene. Wouldn't I, instead of telling the police that the house was locked up tight for the night, have discovered an unlocked door or a broken window and pointed it out to the police when they first arrived?
John told the officers that first arrived that all the doors had been locked the night before. They had to search to find some small, obscure basement window that they couldn't even envision as a point of entry.
If I were staging a scene, wouldn't I have made good and sure it was obvious that someone had entered or exited my house??


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jamesonadmin
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Nov-11-02, 09:05 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: Staging"
In response to message #30
 
   Shelby -

I think you are right. And I SURE don't think you would sit down to write a 3 page note to leave with the body.


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Maikai
unregistered user
Nov-11-02, 11:05 PM (EST)
 
32. "If they had been competent,"
In response to message #31
 
   they would have removed all of the occupants of the house; questioned the Ramseys separately; and secured the inside and outside of the property as a crime scene, and called in the state crime lab and other experts such as the FBI to help them. They did not do a thorough investigation of the outside of the house. They didn't spend that much time outside. They would have found JBR earlyon "if" they were competent...would have started searching the immediate neighborhood.

The leak of the "no footprints in the snow" to the media was the very first article that started raising suspicions, and because it was in a police report, doesn't mean it's based on a good search and investigation of the exterior.


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Maikai
unregistered user
Nov-11-02, 11:12 PM (EST)
 
33. "The bits and pieces of evidence that"
In response to message #32
 
   Lou Smit put together tell the story of what happened, and it's not staging by anyone in that house. Someone entered the basement window...had time to prowl around the house....write a note....take JBR from the bed....stun gun her.....and sexually and brutally assault her, and murder her. Lou Smit said based on his vast experience he's only seen staging once or twice-----and most crimes are what they seem to be........most of us on this forum are way beyond reopening the "parents did it" theory---they didn't do it, and the BPD made a lot of mistakes earlyon.....and some didn't mind leaking wrong information to the media to have them tried in the court of public opinion.


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Karen
unregistered user
Nov-12-02, 01:11 AM (EST)
 
34. "Shelby"
In response to message #33
 
   That is what's so weird about John going down to the basement and finding the window open, carefully closing it, and going back upstairs and not telling the police about it. That couldn't have been staging because then he just un-staged. But what I don't get is that he went down there to check it out and possibly see if he could find where the intruder got in. He FINDS the open window, CLOSES it and doesn't tell the cops. So he FINDS what he went down there to look for but doesn't tell the cops. Somebody help me here. What's up with that?


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Shelby
unregistered user
Nov-12-02, 08:31 PM (EST)
 
39. "Closing the Window"
In response to message #34
 
   I have wondered alot about that too, Karen. I think he was in somewhat of a daze - planning in his mind on the arrangements for obtaining the $118,000, making sure he made the necessary calls to everyone that was expecting them at different places that day (the pilot, his older kids, etc.), on top of his frantic worry about JonBenet. I've always thought that he closed the window without really thinking about what he was doing, and later remembered it during the questioning.


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BraveHeart
unregistered user
Nov-12-02, 01:21 AM (EST)
 
35. "RE: R. was third police officer to arriv"
In response to message #28
 
   He came at 6:45 am after French and Veitch and the Ramsey friends John and Barbara Fernie and Fleet and Priscilla White.

Here is a timeline of events gathered from PMPT and DOI, with the appropriate page numbers for your reference:

Patsy states that her husband, John, wakened at around 5:30 am and began his shower. She got up a few minutes later, dressed, put on her makeup and went down to the second floor to rinse out a soiled jumpsuit that belonged to her daughter, before continuing down to the kitchen. At the bottom of the staircase she found and read the 3 page ransom note lying on one of the steps. As soon as she realized the content she ran back upstairs to JonBenet's bed room which she found to be empty. She screamed for her husband who met her on the 2nd. floor and ran to Burke's room to check on him. From there she ran back down stairs to where John was reading the rn.
PMPT, p.77, PB edition

Patsy states that she gathered clothes for the trip into a plastic bag at the second floor. No mention of laundering a soiled jumpsuit.
DOI, p. 10, PB Edition

John instructed Patsy to call the police. The call was logged in at 5:52 am.
PMPT, p.78, PB edition
Immediately afterward Patsy called the Whites and Fernies.
PMPT, p.78, PB edition
She states that she called Fernies first and then the Whites.
DOI, p. 12,13, PB Edition

The first officer to arrive at the home was Rick French who arrived at 5:59 am.
PMPT, p.7, PB edition, and PMPT, p.78, PB edition

At about 6:00 am, Patsy called the White's residence, their house guest, Cliff Gaston, answers the phone.
PMPT, p.44, PB edition (this conflicts with other references to this call. It was made before officer French arrived at 5:59 am).

Officer Veitch arrives between 5:59 and the arrival of John Fernie.
DOI, p. 14, PB Edition

Fernie was the first of Ramsey friends to arrive. His wife, Barbara, came later.
He tried the patio door first.
PMPT, p.78, PB edition

Minutes after 6:00 am, Priscilla and Fleet White arrive. A few minutes later Fleet goes down to the basement to look for JonBenet.
PMPT, p.44, PB edition

Ramsey tries to call his pilot. Arhuletta returns the call some minutes later and Patsy answers. She is hysterical, being consoled by her friends. A second officer had arrived by this time, Karl Veitch.
PMPT, p.78, PB edition

At 6:45 am, 3 more officers arrive- Barry Weiss, Sue Barcklow, Sgt. Paul Reichenbach.
PMPT, p.79, PB edition


Officer Reichenbach notes no footprints found in the crusty/frosty snow which covered "much of the grass" and the brick walkways were clear of snow.
PMPT, p.57 , PB edition, and PMPT, p.79, PB edition

At 6:45 am Priscilla White called her niece at the White home.
PMPT, p.44, PB edition

At about 7:00 am Burke is awakened, dressed and taken by Fleet White and John Fernie to pick up the Fernie children and then taken to the White's home. Just before they left, Rev. Hoverstock arrived.
PMPT, p.45, PB edition

Sgt. Reichenbach meets with Det's. Arndt and Patterson at the Basemar Shopping Center to brief them on the case.
PMPT, p.79, PB edition

Det's. Linda Arndt and Fred Patterson arrived at the home at 8:10 am.
PMPT, p.10, PB edition

Approx. 10:00 am several crime scene investigators are dusting for fingerprints.
DOI, p. 20, PB Edition

After 10:00 am, John Ramsey goes down to the basement to look at the broken window.

1:00 pm. Det. Arndt instructs John to look throughout the house for unusual items. He takes Fleet with him to the basement.
DOI, p. 21, PB Edition

At 1:05 John Ramsey opens the door to the wine cellar and discovers his daughter's body.
DOI, p. 22, PB Edition

Between 1:05 pm and 1:30 pm Barry Weiss and Det. Michael Everett arrived at the home. Everett searched the basement including the wine cellar.
PMPT, p.21, PB edition
Priscilla called her niece at 1:30 pm, at the White home, to tell her of the murder.
PMPT, p.46, PB edition

Ron Walker and Larry Mason saw JonBenet's body in the living room at 1:30 pm. They then searched the basement and the wine cellar. Mason decides to secure the premises.
PMPT, p.21, PB edition

At 1:30 pm John Ramsey calls his boss, Gary Merriman to tell him of JonBemet's death.
PMPT, p.24, PB edition

House secured by 1:50 pm
PMPT, p.23, PB edition

Det. Arndt visits the Ramseys at the Fernie's house at 2:30 pm. At approx. the same time Det. Patterson talks to Burke Ramsey at the White's house and confirms that Burke had "slept through the events of the previous night".
PMPT, p.23, PB edition


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-12-02, 04:14 PM (EST)
 
36. "Braveheart"
In response to message #35
 
   Thanks for the very thorough timeline. There appears to be a discrepancy, however, since, according to the warrant I've been referring to, "Sgt. Reichenbach states in his report that he had arrived at the Ramsey home at approximately 0600 hours on December 26."

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jonbenet/charlevoix3.html

It's possible this document was not available to Schiller at the time he was writing this portion of PMPT. Reichenbach may have arrived along with French, but possibly decided to examine the exterior of the house first, so his presence might not have been noticed right away. Or possibly the info in the warrant is mistaken. Since the warrant is an official document and Schiller's source is unclear, my instinct tells me the Sgt. probably arrived when he said he did, at 6.

Again, however, my principal point regarding the footprints is NOT whether Reichenbach's report actually proves anything (in itself) but the total irrelevance of the photos released by Smit. Since the Sgt.'s report mentions a light dusting of snow and frost in addition to the patches of snow shown in Smit's photos, there is nothing in these photos that contradicts him (Reichenbach).

In any case, as I've argued repeatedly, it is the PREPONDERANCE of evidence, not just one piece, that makes it so hard to accept any intruder theory. Anyone climbing through that window would had to have left very clear traces of his presence on the frame and sill. NONE were found. This evidence is corroborated by many other things, notably the lack of any exterior sign of forcible entry, the intact spider web on the grate, the lack of any signs of an intruder in and around the grate, and, yes, the lack of any footprints in the vicinity, as (allegedly) observed by a police sergeant, (apparently) at 6 AM.


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jamesonadmin
Charter Member
14249 posts
Nov-12-02, 04:35 PM (EST)
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37. "RE: Braveheart"
In response to message #36
 
   Officers Veitch and French were the first officers to arrive at the Ramsey house. Then the Whites and Fernies arrived. That is not in dispute.


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Kaboodle
unregistered user
Nov-12-02, 07:44 PM (EST)
 
38. "RE: Braveheart"
In response to message #37
 
   The only person who had to put their grubby paws all over the evidence was Fleet White. After JonBenet's body was found, he went straight back down to the basement to touch everything in sight when he was told to guard the door. Why did he blatantly disreguard a direct order by Linda Arndt?


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-12-02, 10:43 PM (EST)
 
40. "Karen"
In response to message #38
 
   >That is what's so weird about John going down to the basement and finding the window open, carefully closing it, and going back upstairs and not telling the police about it. That couldn't have been staging because then he just un-staged.

Excellent point. He unstaged! Now, if he had staged that scene at the window, why would he unstage it by closing the window? And if he had broken the window that night in the hope the police would assume an intruder did it, why would he claim he himself had broken it months earlier?

>But what I don't get is that he went down there to check it out and possibly see if he could find where the intruder got in. He FINDS the open window, CLOSES it and doesn't tell the cops. So he FINDS what he went down there to look for but doesn't tell the cops. Somebody help me here. What's up with that?

Good thinking. What's up with that is that it is suspicious behavior. For sure! Months later he DOES tell the cops about it, but when asked why he didn't tell anyone at the time, he cannot (according to PMPT) explain.

Something there is about this case that does not add up. Somethihg there is about that scene at the basement window that does not add up. Something there is about John's behavior that morning that does not add up.

But consider this: if John had indeed staged the window scene by breaking the window, scooping debris onto the floor, placing the suitcase under the window and then leaving it open -- AND something had gone wrong with his original plan -- for example, if Patsy had called the police too soon, BEFORE he'd had a chance to dump his victim's body and complete his staging -- THEN there would have been a VERY good reason for him to UNstage. Because once the police realized no one could have gone through that window, then they might well put two and two together and see the staging for exactly what it was. By claiming he himself had broken the window months earlier he could have managed to deflect suspicion away from himself in that regard.

For years John insisted it was he who broke that window months before after having been locked out of the house. But when recently deposed by Darnay Hoffman, this is what he had to say:

19 Q. When you saw that the basement was in
20 the condition that it was in, as you have just
21 described it, and you came back upstairs, did you
22 inform anybody of what you found in the basement?
23 A. I don't recall specifically if I did
24 or not. I have a vague recollection of telling
25 Linda Arndt that I found an open window with
0018
1 broken glass, but that I perhaps had broken that
2 glass myself months earlier.

Now John is having second thoughts. "Perhaps" he broke the window himself months earlier. And, I suppose, "perhaps" not -- eh? Well, which is it? Aside from Patsy, NO ONE has ever verified that the window was broken prior to the night of the murder. Linda Pugh, the housekeeper, insisted she never noticed such a thing. Neither did anyone else. It was winter, it was cold, no one noticed a broken window? And now John can't recall if he broke it or not?

Something there is that does NOT add up here. Not at all.


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Maikai
unregistered user
Nov-12-02, 10:53 PM (EST)
 
42. "Where's the photo of the spider"
In response to message #38
 
   web on the grate? I don't recall seeing any.

The photos are not useless. They were taken the same day----any accumulations of snow would still be present if they existed early that morning. Accumlations where someone tromping through the snow would clearly have left footprints that could be seen in the dark with a flashlight. The photos clearly show the melting patterns, and the backyard had no accumlations. A light dusting of snow or frost could very likely have occurred after the perp had left---or any footprint so faint, they were not easily seen in the dark. The bricks would be warmer than the earth, because of the sun shining on them in the daytime.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-12-02, 10:52 PM (EST)
 
41. "RE: Braveheart"
In response to message #37
 
   >Officers Veitch and French were the first officers to arrive
>at the Ramsey house. Then the Whites and Fernies arrived.
>That is not in dispute.

NOW it is.


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jamesonadmin
unregistered user
Nov-12-02, 11:21 PM (EST)
 
43. "photos"
In response to message #41
 
   There are NO photos of the spiderweb. Period.

And there is no question as to who got to the house when. Two cops, then the friends. More cops - then the detective.


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Jaynie59
unregistered user
Nov-12-02, 11:28 PM (EST)
 
44. "Don't put too much stock in that spider "
In response to message #41
 
   Spiders can spin amazing webs in amazingly short periods of time that
span great distances. Really. I pretty much, on a regular basis,
get hit full in the face as I go get the morning paper. I don't even
see them, it's the old ooooh, eeck, yuk, and swat. There's nothing
like a spider web hitting you right across the nose to wake you up in
the morning.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-12-02, 11:37 PM (EST)
 
45. "window"
In response to message #44
 
   What I'd really like to know is if John closed that window which he readily admitted to in DOI then why is the window open in the police photo?


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Karen
unregistered user
Nov-12-02, 11:40 PM (EST)
 
46. "RE: window"
In response to message #45
 
   Help! I can't edit my last post. The post above is from me Karen to DocG. Not from DocG. Sorry!


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BraveHeart
unregistered user
Nov-13-02, 01:42 AM (EST)
 
47. "RE: Officer Reichenbach's report"
In response to message #46
 
   Maybe I am wrong but I don't think Officer R's report is being being disputed, other than perhaps, the time of his arrival. He did state that the brick walkways were clear which means that if an individual stayed entirely on them there would be no prints in the snow. I would also be willing to bet that a broken window within that windowwell would allow for enough heated air to rise up-cold air falls, hot rises- to melt whatever frost or snow might otherwise have been around and on the grate. I think the problem most of us have with the report is the way that the report was misrepresented in leaks to the press.

I defer to Smit's experience and observation about the window as a possible point of entry, but whether or not he is correct, I know there were other ways of entering that house without force and without leaving prints. The fact that Reichenbach didn't find any prints in the snow, on the drive, on the walkway or on the pine needles/leaves doesn't impress me one way or the other. It does not prove the absense or presence of an intruder. Would that it would!


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-13-02, 07:48 AM (EST)
 
48. "Karen"
In response to message #47
 
   Thanks for quickly clarifying your error, Karen. I did not post that question. But I'll take a shot at answering.

Actually the situation with that window, when it was first seen open, when Fleet White saw it, whether it was open or closed when he saw it, when John saw it and what he saw (or what he CLAIMS to have seen), when the police first noticed it, and when they photographed it -- all this is, as far as I have been able to determine, extremely confused. White apparently went down there very early on, noticed the suitcase and the glass, but has claimed it was closed (though not latched?). John claims he went down there around 10 AM, saw it was slightly ajar, and then closed it. But John is a suspect, so we ought not take his testimony at face value. It's possible he had closed it much earlier. It's also possible he's the one who opened it. The police photo shows it fully open (at least as much as possible, since it was blocked by a duct). But I don't think the exact time of that photo has ever been released. I've seen presentations by Smit that imply this photo represents the condition of the window when first observed that morning. But John has claimed it was only slightly ajar when he saw it. I've heard it said the photo was made later in the day, after the window had been examined and manipulated by the police.

What we do NOT have, apparently, is a photo of the window itself, showing exactly how it was broken. The break has been described as roughly round, baseball sized. Which seems odd for an intruder intent on passing a hand through that hole to unlatch it from outside. Why not just kick out the entire pane and THEN reach through?

Again, the whole thing simply does NOT add up. Very very strange situation.


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Karen
unregistered user
Nov-13-02, 12:32 PM (EST)
 
49. "DocG"
In response to message #48
 
   Why would an intruder take a chance on making that much noise, to kick in a window? I've been to the house, not the inside but just viewed it from the street, and the thing that surprised me the most was how close together the houses are on that block. Any neighbor could have heard the sound of a window being broken. I think the Ramseys need to ckear this window thing up. It's one of the major things that make JR look like he's involved and both of them guilty of some kind of participation. Didn't FW mention the window to the police that morning eithor? This window thing is as bad as Jonbenets bed looking like it hadn't been slept in, IMO. I'm trying to sit on the fence here but I'm slowly sliding off, mostly because there are too many suspicious circumstances and questions that haven't been answered by the Ramseys especially in their book when they had a perfect chance to.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-13-02, 02:07 PM (EST)
 
50. "Karen"
In response to message #49
 
   I can answer your question twice:

1. If the guy lifted the grate, and went down into the well, then he was definitely planning on breaking a window. Because there would have been no way for him to see that the window was already broken until he got down there.

2. It would have been possible for him to break that window without making hardly any sound at all. Just apply more and more pressure with your foot until the glass gives. Or just use your hands to pull out the unbroken shards and lay them on the window well. Softly.

It's really hard to see how an intruder could have managed to squirm his hand and arm into a baseball sized hole in order to get at the latch. Or why he'd go to all that trouble when it would have been so easy to just remove the remaining glass from the (small) pane.

You are definitely right to remain on the fence. This cas is FAR more complex and puzzling than either the Ramsey defenders or the so-called BORG are willing to accept. As far as Lou Smit is concerned, he has been able to make his points only by ignoring significant evidence.


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jamesonadmin
unregistered user
Nov-13-02, 03:44 PM (EST)
 
51. "DocG"
In response to message #50
 
   What did he ignore?

John made a hole in the glass so HE could open it - so it follows logically that the hole would have been big enough for an intruder's hand too.

Someone is saying that if anyone went in that window there would have been a "clean sweep" as the person went in - - his butt dragging acoss the ledge. But that is not true. There is a rim there - I know because I have been there, gone inthe window. You pick up your butt to go over the rim - - else it would hurt!


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-13-02, 04:44 PM (EST)
 
52. "Jameson"
In response to message #51
 
   >What did he ignore?
>
>John made a hole in the glass so HE could open it - so it
>follows logically that the hole would have been big enough
>for an intruder's hand too.

According to the latest word from John, via Darnay's deposition, he "perhaps" made a hole in the glass. "Perhaps" he himself punched out that hole months earlier. Not sure. Maybe not. "Hmmmmm . . . now lemme think, did I or didn't I . . . "

Have you seen that hole, by the way? Or a photo of it? I'm really curious to know how someone,either John OR an intruder, could get his arm through such a hole to unlatch the latch.

>
>Someone is saying that if anyone went in that window there
>would have been a "clean sweep" as the person went in - -
>his butt dragging acoss the ledge. But that is not true.
>There is a rim there - I know because I have been there,
>gone inthe window. You pick up your butt to go over the rim
>- - else it would hurt!

Jameson, we've all seen Lou Smit squeeze his way through that very narrow space. You're telling me that wouldn't have left any trace on the window sill or frame?

What the rim does for me is explain why the debris wasn't just shoved from the well, across the sill and onto the floor. Which would have displaced debris on the sill. The presence of the rim would have made it necessary to scoop that stuff up, out of the well and then drop it onto the floor, bypassing the sill. Looks VERY much like it happened that way.


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jamesonadmin
Charter Member
14249 posts
Nov-13-02, 08:16 PM (EST)
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53. "response"
In response to message #52
 
   John does not dispute in any way that he BROKE the window to get in the house. More details will be released on that soon.

The rim - - there WAS a disturbance at the window - and I think it fits someone going in there, or out. The thing I was trying to explain is why there was no "clean sweep" on the window sill - and I think I did that fairly well.


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Maikai
unregistered user
Nov-13-02, 09:34 PM (EST)
 
54. "Karen, I recall reading or hearing"
In response to message #53
 
   from JR himself, that he did tell Linda Arndt about the window. The police were there--the Ramseys thought the police would know what to do. And don't forget---that morning, how the perp got in or out wasn't particularly important---JBR missing was the focus. At that point in time, JBR was gone, and there was a note saying she would die, if the ransom wasn't paid.


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jamesonadmin
Charter Member
14249 posts
Nov-13-02, 10:04 PM (EST)
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55. "I believe..."
In response to message #54
 
   John didn't remember if he kicked it or punched it to break it. There was no question he broke the window, the question was how he did it.


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BraveHeart
unregistered user
Nov-14-02, 00:45 AM (EST)
 
56. "RE: weather data"
In response to message #55
 
   LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-02 AT 01:26 AM (EST)
 
For those of us interested in what happened with the snow, and the weather in general, and how it may have affected the events of December 26th. I am posting the following weather data. I can't find my original notes and links so I have been looking for other web sites which have the essential information. FYI also, there are forensic meteorologists who research this aspect of various crimes and provide their reports to the lawyers. I heard of Lincoln using this type of research to win a case but I didn't know there were professionals who did this for a living.

Boulder, Colorado times of sunrise and sunset

every December


Sunrise Sunset Length-of-Day
1 7:02 4:36 9:34
2 7:03 4:36 9:33
3 7:04 4:36 9:32
4 7:05 4:36 9:31
5 7:06 4:35 9:29
6 7:06 4:35 9:29
7 7:07 4:35 9:28
8 7:08 4:35 9:27
9 7:09 4:35 9:26
10 7:10 4:35 9:25
11 7:11 4:36 9:25
12 7:12 4:36 9:24
13 7:12 4:36 9:24
14 7:13 4:36 9:23
15 7:14 4:36 9:22
16 7:14 4:37 9:23
17 7:15 4:37 9:22
18 7:16 4:37 9:21
19 7:16 4:38 9:22
20 7:17 4:38 9:21
21 7:17 4:39 9:22
22 7:18 4:39 9:21
23 7:18 4:40 9:22
24 7:19 4:40 9:21
25 7:19 4:41 9:22
***26 7:20 4:41 9:21***
27 7:20 4:42 9:22
28 7:20 4:43 9:23
29 7:21 4:44 9:23
30 7:21 4:44 9:23
31 7:21 4:45 9:24

The sun rose at 7:20am in the East which would have been on the front entry side of the house, where the window (in which the abandoned flue was positioned) to the furnace room was.

http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/Boulder/boulder.sunset.html#December

Daily Precipitation and snowfall record for
Dec 1996 Boulder, Colorado

Day high T low T Precip Snow Snow Depth

1 51 14 0 0 2
2 46 27 0 0 1
3 47 14 0 0 1
4 41 21 0 0 1
5 47 24 0.02 0 T

6 44 30 0 0 T
7 45 27 0 0 T
8 68 38 0 0 0
9 67 37 0 0 0
10 63 43 0 0 0

11 56 35 0 0 0
12 58 36 0 0 0
13 54 31 0 0 0
14 51 29 0 0 0
15 40 13 0 0 0

***16 40 14 0.23 3.8 4***
***17 18 -4 0.11 2.1 6***
18 18 -6 0 0 4
19 31 -4 0 0 4
20 49 22 0 0 3

21 47 36 0 0 2
22 52 20 0 0 1
***23 38 17 0.01 0.2 1***
24 44 24 0 0 T
25 54 24 0 0 T

***26 51 6 0 T 0***
27 59 26 0 0 0
28 54 37 0 0 0
29 64 34 0 0 0
30 60 42 0 0 0

31 65 32 0 0 0

The snow that covered the yard, as seen in the photos taken early on the morning of the 26th., fell on the 16th. & 17th.-a total of 5.9 inches.Then followed 6 days of above freezing daytime temperatures where the snow melted (down to an average depth of 1" on the 23rd. after a very light 0.2 inches fell. By the 25th. only a trace of snow, on the average for the weather station for Boulder, was left on the ground. Then on the 26th. a trace of snow fell with no significant accumulations, the "dusting". The remainder of the snow, just a "trace" melted on the 26th. Not much rain fell during the month, none in the two days prior to the 26th. It was a very light amount and I feel sure the ground was dry on the night of the 25th. & 26th.and probably hard.

http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/Boulder/boulder.data.1990-99.html#Dec96

NOAA-CIRES Climate Diagnostics Center
Document maintained by Cathy Smith (cas@cdc.noaa.gov)
Updated: Jun 28, 2001 11:39:47 MDT
http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/Boulder/getdata.html

Every day from 1948 to the present for Boulder:
ftp://ftp.cdc.noaa.gov/Public/cas/boulder.daily.data



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BraveHeart
Charter Member
458 posts
Nov-14-02, 01:18 AM (EST)
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57. "RE: moonset and rise"
In response to message #56
 
   moonrise 5:32 pm 25th.
moonset 8:21 am 26th.
The moon was full, and set in the northwest, beyond the flatirons.
This was opposite the furnace window which bears on the lack of light within the furnace room at approx. 6:00 am when
Fleet White opened the door to the windowless room. As the sun rose at 7:20 am the only light availiable to Fleet at that time was the lone light bulb behind him which his rather tall figure blocked as he peered into the room from the door's threshold. Probably that is why he didn't see anything and John did, when he looked in at 1:05 pm. The sun's diffuse rays would have been entering the furnace room window at that time, and John's rather short figure would not have blocked the artificial light behind him

http://mach.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_rstablew.pl or
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.html


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Karen
unregistered user
Nov-14-02, 01:55 AM (EST)
 
58. "Maikai"
In response to message #54
 
   Oh. Well, I was going by John's own words in DOI. Is that book an accurate acount of their own story or not? Should I believe any of it? According to his book he didn't say anything to LA or anybody.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-14-02, 04:18 PM (EST)
 
59. "Seeing in the dark"
In response to message #58
 
   Fleet looked in that room prior to sunrise. Therefore his eyes would have been dark adapted. John looked in there about an hour after noon. His eyes would NOT have been dark adapted. If you take a good look at the position of the basement windows you'll see that none of them would really have offered much in the way of additional light into the windowless room, even at 1 PM. So the light availalbe to Fleet and John would have been roughly the same. The difference is that it is MUCH easier to see in the dark when ones eyes are dark adapted, as Fleet's must have been. If he looked in there and saw nothing, then either there was nothing there OR JonBenet's body was well hidden, under blankets and in a remote corner of the room.


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BraveHeart
unregistered user
Nov-14-02, 08:32 PM (EST)
 
60. "RE: Dark Adaptation"
In response to message #59
 
   http://www.cquest.utoronto.ca/psych/psy280f/ch3/drkadapt/da.html

A google search of "dark adaptation" will result in 262,000 web pages on the subject like the one above if one is so inclined to study them.

This phenomena occurs when we walk from a brightly lit space into a very dark room, such as a movie theatre. Essentially, it takes about 5-7 minutes for the eyes to adjust to see anything and another 30 minutes or so for the eyes to complete the adjustment. You will notice things within the theatre, earlier than this, if they are illuminated by what is on a brightly lit screen.

However, This could not a factor in the matter of what Fleet or John saw, or didn't see, in the windowless room for the following reasons:

1. Dark adaptation occurs when one moves from one room or place into another with very low (but not nonexistent as found in a cave far below the earth's surface) illumination. Neither John nor Fleet entered the windowless wine cellar to look around. They stood at the threshold of the door yet were nevertheless still in the furnace room. What they saw in the wine cellar was whatever was illuminated by the reflected/refracted light of the furnace room similar to those things lit by the movie screen in the example above.

2. When Fleet entered the basement at about 6:00 am he noted that the basement lights were on already. My guess is that Officer French had turned them on as he searched the basement a few moments earlier and had left them on. Thus, Fleet's eyes went from a marginally lit living area to a marginally lit basement all illuminated by incandescent bulbs. They did not adjust between the two levels as they were essentially at the same level.

3. The only difference between the light that was availiable to Fleet White and John Ramsey was the refracted/reflected light entering the furnace room window after day break. This however, was significant extra lighting in addition to the lone bulb that lit the furnace room.

4. If adaptation were involved it would require a 3 to 7 minute period of time for either John or Fleet's eyes to adapt to whatever light had been in the room in order to see anything. Neither one waited anything like this time before they either left or turned on the room light.

5. The light availiable in the furnace room and that penetrating the darkness of the wine cellar through the open doorway was further hindered by Fleet's body as he stood in the doorway-the lone bulb was behind him about 5 feet and up about 1.5 feet above his head. His body would have blocked any light from reaching the floor in front of him.

All this can be measured with a light meter, and/or recreated, if it ever becomes necessary to prove this in court for whatever reason. I am certain that this is what happened and why and I find no reason to account for the difference with any body switching theory.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-14-02, 08:59 PM (EST)
 
61. "RE: Dark Adaptation"
In response to message #60
 
   Braveheart, what I'm saying is that Fleet's eyes were ALREADY dark adapted prior to his looking into the windowless room. So he wouldn't have needed all that additional time, his eyes were already adapted. There is no comparison between artificial light and sunlight, the latter is far far stronger. Fleet arrived prior to sunrise and was exposed only to artificial light, so his eyes were already optimally prepared to look into that room. We also have to remember that he did NOT say he looked into a totally dark room and couldn't see anything. He said he looked into the room and didn't see JonBenet.

When John looked in the room that afternoon, his eyes would have been exposed to sunlight for some time. So it's HIS eyes that would have needed a few minutes to adjust, NOT Fleet's. Yet he claims he saw her immediately!


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Margoo
unregistered user
Nov-15-02, 04:01 AM (EST)
 
62. "RE: Dark Adaptation"
In response to message #61
 
   DocG, are you saying that Fleet White's eyes had NOT been exposed to artificial lighting in the basement when he opened the door to the unlit room? I think Braveheart is saying they were exposed to artificial light and therefore did not readily accommodate the change to no, or very little, light.


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docG
unregistered user
Nov-15-02, 05:57 AM (EST)
 
63. "RE: Dark Adaptation"
In response to message #62
 
   I'm saying that there is no comparison between exposure to artificial light and sunlight, the latter is much more intense and therefor one needs much more time for dark adaptation after prolonged exposure to sunlight. Timing is, of course, also a factor. White claims he went down to the basement shortly after he arrived, which means he would have had minimal exposure even to artificial light and would have been maximally dark adapted at that time. If he had looked into the windowless room at that time, his eyes would already have been adapted to the dark. It's possible, however, that he looked into the room at a later time, in which case he would have had more exposure to artificial light and would not have been fully dark adapted. Even so, his eyes would have been far better adapted than John's when he looked in there at 1 PM, after having been exposed to hours of sunlight.


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jamesonadmin
unregistered user
Nov-15-02, 10:26 AM (EST)
 
64. "size and space"
In response to message #63
 
   I think we need to consider what was happening when these people went searching.

Fleet had not been in the house very long and he went looking for JonBenét, calling her name. Despite the ransom note, he was calling her name, hoping that this would be like the situation in his own home where Daphne went missing, the cops were called, friends were called, but the child was simply hiding and perfectly safe.

So he opens a door and there is a totally dark room - - a room he HAD been in before - -he KNEW it was a nasty storage room. Not the place a little girl was likely to hide in. No child answering his call - - and the LARGE MAN was blocking any light that was behind him.

I think he quickly registered that he was looking into that nasty room and she wouldn't be hiding inthere - - and left.

On the other hand, John was asked to do a more thorough search. Being smaller than Fleet, more light would have passed by him into the room so he would stand a better chance of seeing her - but the fact is, he knew where the light switch was and he turned it on!

I know that he can't remember all the details of that time. He certainly wouldn't be able to tell you what foot he put in the room first and I don't think he even noticed the pink nightgown on the floor - - - all his attention was on JonBenét. he can't remember turning on the light - but he DID turn it on - - we know that because Fleet White was then able to see the body, her foot sticking out from the blanket.

I see NOTHING strange in the fact that Fleet didn't see the body when he went down ahortly after 6 am - - and John found it immediately when he went searching the same area after 1 pm.


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BraveHeart
unregistered user
Nov-15-02, 12:05 PM (EST)
 
65. "RE: a suggested test"
In response to message #64
 
   The next time you go to a movie stop for a moment as you open the door. You will probably be in an alcove with a dim light. look in. You probably will be able to see some seats or people at the front of the theatre when the screen is lit up. If you move on in it will take a few minutes for your eyes to adjust to where you can see enough to find your seat, unless the screen remains brightly lit.

Standing in the furnace room which was lit, dimly, and looking into the dark wine cellar/windowless room would be simillar to looking into the theatre. You can immediately see what is illuminated but but not much if it isn't.

Adaptation takes place when you move from a light space **into** the dark space and it is either not illuminated, or poorly illuminated.

When someone gets up in the morning and turns on the light their eyes adapt to light very quickly, in moments. The drive over to the Ramseys house probably took 10 minutes, or less, i would guess-I think you can drive across the whole town in 20 minutes or less. It takes in the neighborhood of 6-7 minutes for your rods to adapt to darkness, 30 minutes or more for the cones. After Fleet arrived at the Ramsey house he moved from one illuminated room to another and hjis eyes would have become accustomed to that light very quickly, reversing what adaptation had happened in the drive over.

While the reflected and refracted light penetrating the furnace room window was significant, I don't think any direct sunlight entered the room as the sun, at that time, was above and southwest of the house, placing it opposite the east elevation where the window wqs. The outside of the window was partially shaded by brush as well. We are not talking going from direct sunlight outside into a completely dark room. Dark adaptation takes place when we move from one extreme to another. Otherwise, it is minimal or doesn't happen at all. Unless one of the two men have some genetic problem with their eyesight the only significant difference in their ability to see what was in the room was in the amount of light that entered the wine cellar door from the furnace room.

Since the original room has been bricked over it would not be easy to test this but I think a reasonable substitute might be arranged by someone if they are interested. If your theory hinges on what happened at the door you might want to recreate the situation and see what you come up with.

I think it's also pertinent to remember that the room was "L" shaped and had a lot of miscellaneous junk in it. The body lay, mostly, around the interior corner. It is possible, I think, that Fleet saw various but unrecognizable items, shades and shapes in the moment he looked into the room...nothing that would suggest to him that anyone was hiding in there as Jams suggests above. He wasn't looking for a body-specifically, two small feet sticking out from under a blanket just beyond the interior corner of the room.



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