A. Yeah, may I read the paragraph?

Q. Yeah, I want to find out who that detective is.

A. I believe that's Trujillo and Wickman who made that statement, specifically Wickman, which John
Eller certainly also heard.

Q. Anybody else?

A. I think this was Tom Koby. This was that meeting I described in a vehicle at the parking lot of
the shopping mall, Koby, Eller, Wickman, Trujillo, and I don't know whether or not that's on tape.

Q. But isn't the bottom line that Chet Ubowski made it very clear that, whatever his beliefs were, he
was not in a position from his standpoint to state under oath that Patsy Ramsey was the author within
any degree of certainty; isn't that what he told you, sir?

A. No, the conduit was Wickman who said something very similar to that that he couldn't get on the
stand and testify to it.

Q. And that never changed while you were there, did it, that Ubowski would not get on the stand and
testify to it, right?

A. Yeah, as far as I know Ubowski never took the stand and testified to it.

Q. And it was always your understanding that he said that he was not in a position to do so from an
opinion standpoint; isn't that true?

A. To take the stand?

Q. He would not go under oath and testify that Patsy Ramsey within reasonable certainty was the
author of the note?

A. Well, the reasonable certainty I recall I think it was Mr. Ubowski speaking at the VIP
presentation and I would like to see a transcript of that because I thought --

Q. I thought maybe --

A. -- his answer or his remarks were fairly strong there. But no, he was obviously not in a position
to take the stand and make that identification in court.

Q. Am I right, maybe I went over this and I apologize, did Mr. Ubowski in his report say "There is
evidence which indicates that the ransom note may have been written by Patsy Ramsey but the
evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion." That's Mr. Ubowski's opinion,
right?

A. That's his formal report opinion.

Q. Did you ever know that opinion to change before August of 1998 when you left?

A. To get stronger or weaker?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

A. No, as I've said, I wasn't aware that Mr. Ubowski was retracting any statements prior to you're
making me aware of that today.

Q. If this is correct Mr. Ubowski is in fact stating on April 10, 2000 that he denies saying that Patsy
Ramsey wrote the note and that he, the claim that 24 of the alphabet's 26 letters looked like -- looked as
if they had been written by Patsy is denied as the lab does not quantify like that? You have never
heard those statements made by the CBI before I showed you this KCNC report today?

A. No, as I have said, no.

but I did find this - - and it is interesting...

From April of 2000, 4 months before the Atlanta Interviews...

RIVERA: So is it fair to say that, as of tonight, as we sit here tonight, you do not have convincing evidence of an intruder to the Ramsey home?

Mr. HUNTER: We have some evidence of intruder. We have not closed our mind to it. But I--I'm not
going to say that all we have is looking in the house. I'm not going to say that that's all we have or
all that we are concerned with, because there's--the case is more complicated than that.

RIVERA: The ransom note--clearly, it's a fake. When you say that Patsy Ramsey has not been
excluded as the author of the note, are you saying, because it's parallel to your previous statement
that they're not excluded as possible suspects in the case--are you saying that it is one of your
suspicions that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note or Patsy Ramsey is a suspect in the authoring of the
note?

Mr. HUNTER: Well, you know, I--I think, in fairness to this investigation, the handwriting people that
we have retained in this case and that have been retained by the Ramseys, I--it--it is a very low
probability, according to these experts. Now these handwriting--you know, in the--in the Oklahoma
City bombing case, Matsch didn't let--let that stuff in. There's a lot of mumbo-jumbo to it. I don't
think it's particularly reliable. So I don't think it's fair to say that, you know, what these experts say,
sug--they just don't exclude her.

RIVERA: She's not...

Mr. HUNTER: They don't exclude her, but it's very low. And, frankly, if we get this to trial, which I
hope, I would prefer to give that note to the jury and give that jury historical writings that--that
might pertain to a particular individual and have them using their common sense, because these
handwriting people have come up with such a scale and standards that it's really hard to...

RIVERA: It's a--it's--it's not quite a science yet.

Mr. HUNTER: No.