A. I did, so I guess in present tense I do if I knew him at one time.

Q. Do you know of Mr. Shapiro's documentation of telephone conversations by taping them?

A. In a particular context I do.

Q. Do you have any knowledge, recollection of telephone conversations between you and Jeff
Shapiro when you were in Quantico, Virginia preparing to meet with the FBI? Did you talk with Mr.
Shapiro during that time period?

A. I did.

Q. Do you have any notes about those conversations?

A. No.

Q. Do you have any recollection of the substance of those conversations?

A. Vaguely.

Q. You did, in fact, provide information to Ann Bardach at Vanity Fair about the JonBenet Ramsey
investigation, didn't you, sir?

A. I did.

Q. You also provided information about the JonBenet Ramsey investigation to Carol McKinley, didn't
you, sir?

A. We discussed the politics of the investigation. I consider Carol a friend now.

Q. While you were still on the force active in the investigation, you provided information about it to
Ann Bardach at Vanity Fair, you discussed it with Carol McKinley and you also provided it to the
supermarket tabloid The Globe through Jeff Shapiro, true?

A. No, I disagree with your characterization of whatever you're trying to say about Shapiro. I
wasn't supplying him with information about --

Q. You didn't --

A. -- the case.

Q. You didn't tell Jeff Shapiro to come get in a tree at the Ramsey house because you were all going
over there and sleep there one night?

A. I think the tree was his own doing but I did mention to him that we were going to be at the
Ramsey house, yes.

Q. Well, we'll go into Mr. Shapiro and that a little bit later.

MR. WOOD: Darnay?

MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

MR. WOOD: Give me two seconds.

MR. HOFFMAN: Should I start?

MR. DIAMOND: In two seconds.

MR. WOOD: Darnay?

MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

MR. WOOD: I'm going to turn it over to you and you have at it.

MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Wood.

MR. WOOD: Where are we on time so that I know what I did? I might have gone over five minutes
longer than I meant to.

VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Total?

MR. WOOD: Total time of testimony.

VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Two hours and ten minutes.

MR. WOOD: Two hours and ten minutes. Thank you.

A. No, sir.

Q. I mean, that's a pretty damning statement to make about a man to say that you never know what
to believe when he speaks because that's a way of saying that he's a liar, not to be trusted, wouldn't you
agree?

A. I always take at face value what comes out of Mr. Hunter's mouth.

Q. Jeff Shapiro was your confidential informant, right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you had during your investigation of JonBenet Ramsey's murder a confidential informant who
was a tabloid, supermarket tabloid, reporter for Globe, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were trying to get Mr. Shapiro to get you information about Mr. Hunter, right?

A. He came to us with information. Eye and -- ear and eyewitness information about some of the
activities going on in Mr. Hunter's office, yes.

There was talk of polygraph tests to find the source of the leaks but the union said cops couldn't be polygraphed, so the paintbrush colored everyone - - it was not a comfortable time in Boulder - - I remember well hearing that from reporters and others.

A. I'm not sure but I'm confident he was tape recording most likely those conversations and that
would bear out that conversation.

Q. Why are you confident that he was tape recording them?

A. It was my impression that he was tape recording a lot of people.

Q. Did you ever make a statement to him on the phone, Jeff, do you know what they call the people
that chased down Princess Diana, papparazzi, and do you know what they call someone who strangles
and kills their child, Poppa Ramsey?

A. Never.

Q. Never made that statement?

A. Never.

Q. You deny that under oath?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever read "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town"?

A. I did.

Q. Any phone conversations involving you that you read and thought were grossly inaccurate?

A. Yes.

Q. Which ones were those?

A. One in which Jeff Shapiro, according to Schiller, alleges that I told Shapiro who I thought killed
the victim in this case.

Q. The one where you said John and Patsy?

A. I don't know if you would care to turn to the quote, that's the one I'm recalling.

Q. Is that the one?

A. I don't know. Let me look at the quote.

Q. We'll come back to it later if we need to. Anything else, other than that one?

A. There were, I think, a number of factual errors in the book. And if you would like to sit down and
go through the book, we can certainly do that.

Q. If you're willing at some point and your attorneys will let you do that with me, I assure you that I
very much would like to sit down and do that with you. I am very interested in those facts for
inaccuracies. Anybody besides Carol McKinley, Jeff Shapiro and Ms. Bardach that you discussed this
case with while you were still actively involved in this investigation in terms of media individuals?

A. That phone would sometimes ring in the situation room 100 times a day. I would pick up the
phone but, no, didn't carry on any dialogue or conversation with others.

Q. Did you ask Jeff Shapiro to find out who was telling people in Boulder that you were the source
for the Vanity Fair article?

A. If we had a conversation in which I asked him to do that, I certainly wouldn't deny it.

Q. And he told you -- do you recall him telling you it was Bill Wise, Alex Hunter's assistant?

A. He may have.

Q. And you responded, "Those fuckers, he said, almost as if he were catatonic. Then he got louder.
Those fuckers, he repeated. Those fuckers, he shouted. Jesus Christ, Jeff, do you know what the fuck
will happen to me if it comes out on national television that I had anything to do with this fucking article
while I'm up here," he asked. " I'm up here with the FBI, man. Do you have any idea how fucking
embarrassing it's going to be if we're all sitting in a room together with CNN on and that comes over
it? Fuck, it's going to make that whole department look like shit. Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ." Did you
ever say anything like that to Jeff Shapiro, sir, in a telephone conversation when you were in Quantico?

MR. DIAMOND: Are you reading from something you would like to share?

MR. WOOD: My notes.

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you have a conversation with words to that effect when you talked to
Mr. Shapiro about who was saying that you were the source for the Vanity Fair article?

A. Again, Mr. Wood, it leads me to believe that he was in fact probably taping these telephone
conversations. Yeah, I spoke with him at a period that I was very upset.

Q. You don't deny making those statements, do you, sir? I'm sorry for the language for the court
reporter's sake but it's business and I think everyone understands that. You don't deny making those
statements at all, do you, because you --

MR. DIAMOND: In those words?

MR. WOOD: Oh, yeah. These are quotes pretty much that I was reading.

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You don't deny it under oath, do you, sir?

A. I don't know if those are quotes or not but I probably had a conversation similar to that.

Q. That wasn't the only one like that, was it?

A. Like what, Mr. Wood?

Q. Where you were so upset about being outted as a source. You got real upset when you thought
they were going to ask you to take a polygraph, didn't you?

A. I was prepared to come back and when asked admit that I spoke with Ann Bardach.

Q. Why don't you just come back and admit the truth, sir? Here you are in, at least at the time, what
was one of the most, if not the most, high profile murder investigations in the country; an article has
come out about that investigation when it's only into its first few months that has an impact on the
investigation because it does contain previously undisclosed confidential police information. Did you
not think it was the correct and honorable and professional thing to do to simply come back and tell the
truth that you had met with her these several times and that you had provided her with information?

MR. DIAMOND: Objection. Argumentative. You may answer.

A. Did I think it was the honorable thing to come back to Boulder and tell the truth about it?

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yes, sir.

A. I had the same question of your clients, yes.

Q. I'm not -- let me tell you something, sir, we're not talking about my clients right now we're talking
about Steve Thomas. You've been doing a lot of talking and a lot of writing about my clients, but now
we're talking about you. You were not prepared to come face the truth of what you had done and out
yourself as the source and you were scared to death they were going to make you take a polygraph test
and everyone was going to know that Steve Thomas had done it and you were going to be fired and
you were probably going to be prosecuted. That was your fear, wasn't it, sir, pure and simple one
word, disgraced?

A. No.

Q. You didn't have concerns about being prosecuted by Alex Hunter?

A. I was concerned when Shapiro mentioned the conversations he was having with Mr. Hunter
according to Shapiro included criminally prosecuting whoever spoke or had spoken with Ann Bardach
and I was prepared to come back when asked, as I said, and admit my role. Prior to that happening,
they dropped the whole witch hunt inside the police department.

A. I don't know what other people would have thought, Mr. Wood, but I was talking to Mr. Shapiro,
The Globe reporter as in an informant capacity. I wasn't sharing information about the case with Carol
McKinley. I described that as the politics of the investigation. And regarding Ann Bardach, no, I have
not publicly disclosed that.

Q. You didn't find yourself the source for a Globe story about the demand by the police to arrest the
Ramseys and got upset with Jeff Shapiro because he had given that information to his editors that made
up that story; you were concerned that you were going to be found to be the source of that story, too?

A. I don't know what you're talking about.

Q. Did you ever give information to the National Enquirer or Shelly Ross, a former employee of the
National Enquirer about the 911 tape in terms of the allegations that Burke Ramsey appeared on it?

A. I don't know that I did.

Q. Do you deny doing it?

A. I like Shelly Ross; I don't know that I discussed with her evidence in the case.

Q. Did you discuss it with the National Inquirer?

A. No, the only conversations that I believe that I have had with the National Enquirer is when they
after I resigned tried to buy a story from me.

Q. So after you resigned, you went on in September of 1997 20/20, Shelly Ross as the executive
producer, right?

A. I believe that's right.

Q. A couple weeks before that there had been an article in the National Enquirer disclosing the
enhanced 911 tape enhancement about Burke Ramsey, right?

A. I don't know that.

Q. Did you tell Shelly Ross about that before you made the appearance on her show, the 911 tape
enhancement?

A. No, as I said, I don't admit any such thing of sharing that information with Shelly Ross.

Q. Do you deny it?

A. Yeah, again I didn't share that as I sit here today or have any recollection of sharing that with
Shelly Ross. Yeah, as a matter of fact, upon reflection, Mr. Wood, I categorically deny that because I
remember at the time the suggestion that I may have been the source of that, and I absolutely was not.

Q. And you would take a polygraph on that, wouldn't you?

MR. DIAMOND: I'm not going to let him answer that question.

(next to polygraph thread)

A. He was -- this kid was all over the board and he --

Q. I meant for you, though, please.

A. I'm sorry?

Q. I'm just asking, you described him as my confidential informant and I just want to see any areas
other than to give you information about Hunter in his office that he was a confidential informant on for
you?

A. Were other detectives using him?

Q. No. Were you using him for anything other than to find out about what was going on with Alex
Hunter?

A. Yeah. As I started to say this kid was all over the board and would bring into the police
department everything from A to Z. And most of it was nothing but occasionally and I can't think of
anything right now, he may bring something in of interest. But in particular, yes, it was -- I was most
interested in him for the information he was providing about Hunter and the DA's office.

A. If we're talking about Frank Coffman -- no, I don't I recall the article if we're talking about the
same article, which I had cut out, which I had at my desk at the Boulder Police Department.

Q. Did you meet with Frank Coffman and Jeff Shapiro one day and reach into your badge wallet and
unfold the article and show it to Frank and Jeff and say basically, guys, you're right about where I'm
coming from, words to that effect?

A. No. Again, I was very careful with Shapiro and didn't know Coffman, but I do acknowledge of
being in possession of that article. If I had it in my wallet, I don't know.

Did he have the darn article in his badge wallet or not? No wonder we argue so much on these discussion boards. He had the article but will not quite admit he had it in his badge wallet to coincide with this 'story'. Yeah, whatever.

I wonder if he got shafted because he wasn't 100% BORG.

This is sooo "funny" -

Then came Vanity Fair. In this unlikely magazine venue, reporter Ann Bardach tipped the JonBenet investigation right over the precipice by exposing how the hunt for the killer had become lost to internecine battles between law enforcement agencies in an unforgivable breach of public trust. Bardach stopped just short of accusing the Boulder County District Attorney of obstructing justice.

page 239

"No matter what mistakes the police made, they have been exponentially compounded by blunders and improprieties in the DA's office," Bardach wrote. .... Former FBI profiler Gregg McCrary was quoted as saying that the sharing of vital evidence was "unprecedented and unprofessional and an obstruction of justice. It's criminal ... It's possible you could make a case for prosecutorial malfeasance. It completely undermines the investigation."

(and we and McCrary were supposed to think Hunter was the leak to Bardach.)

And,

Although some of us in the police department were delighted to see the truth finally come to light, the story could not have been published at a worse time.

(well then, Steve, why didn't you time it better?)