"The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them."

Just supposing: perhaps there were three: one writing the Ransom Note and two in the Basement with JonBenet.

We know of two persons of interest: Gary Oliva and Thomas Helgoth.

We know of Gary Oliva's background (attempted strangulation, his strange audio tapes + ?) plus the the stun gun found in his packsack, his statement that he was communicating with JonBenet, his confession to his friends only two days later that he did something bad to a little girl, and finally his showing at the one year anniversary vigil. Question #1) Was Gary Oliva properly questioned? He said he didn't kill JonBenet. Maybe he didn't, but maybe the questions were not asked in the right way.

Question #2) Do we know of Thomas Helgoth's background? I am aware of nothing. Did he have any record? If not, did anyone say anything about him?

Question #3) Is anyone aware of the slightest hint of connection between these two 'gentlemen' and any one else associated with the Ramseys, personally or socially?

Of course we know of another person of interest, Chris Wolf and we know about his sentiments towards John Ramsey, the fact that he worked for the very Business Magazine that was found in the Ramsey home with Ricochet drawn hearts, and his frequenting of interesting night life spots. I am not saying he did it. He may have just inadvertantly introduced one "faction" to another.

Come to think of it, Jackie Dilhson (Cris Wolf's girlfriend) was heavily into NewAge with her Dakota Ranch and so was Jane Stobie as expressed in her book: JonBenet's Gift: A Miracle for the Millenium. Jane like Chris did not like John Ramsey.

Interesting crowd in a small town.

>He said he didn't kill JonBenet.
No, he never said that.
His response is what is known as a "Negative Pregnant".
He was accused in the conjuctive and by replying in the conjunctive his reply is 'pregnant with the negative' that would have been resolved had he properly framed his response in the disjunctive.
Q: 'Did you hurt and kill JonBenet Ramsey?'
A: 'No'.
versus
A: "I neither hurt nor killed JonBenet Ramsey".
The first response is a Negative Pregnant. He has only denied doing both acts.

>Do we know of Thomas Helgoth's background?
Yes, including some of his outdoor activities that make his having rented a remote mountain cabin for a month not all that alarming, however, it does seem to have been at just the right time if there were to be an actual kidnapping.

>Come to think of it, Jackie Dilhson (Cris Wolf's girlfriend)
>was heavily into NewAge with her Dakota Ranch
Yeah, okay. She was weird with 'new age stuff'. But when she saw what she considered inappropriate conduct she through the bum out and severed all connection with him. Thats what counts.

>Interesting crowd in a small town.
Yes, indeed.
But I don't think a 'crowd' was involved in this killing.

I think that this is one of the reasons that people outside of Boulder who don't accept the BPD/tabloid theories about Ramsey guilt so easily find suspects. To many outsiders, almost everyone who lives there seems rather strange. It may be advisable to adjust one's criteria to account for this; otherwise the whole town seems guilty.

Now it's possible that all the rest of us are "interesting" and strange and that the people who live in Boulder are perfectly normal, average, every-day citizens (whatever that may mean). In this case, it would be advisable for outsiders to make some adjustments away from strangeness of the outside world and towards the normality of Boulder. :-)

As most might remember, I feel that the one who did this got some inside information from someone at AG, particularly about the Jeff Merrick affair.

So many changes when you start to get old...but I don't remember what they are.
Maybe I ought to run for political office?

Question #1) Was Gary Oliva properly questioned?
- NO. It's still an open question.

Question #2) Do we know of Thomas Helgoth's background?
- a little bit and that cabin at the same time is interesting.

Question #3) Is anyone aware of the slightest hint of connection between these two 'gentlemen' and any one else associated with the Ramseys, personally or socially?
- Braveheart, whomever that contact is might hold the key.

Perhaps it was only one person, but there seems to be local some "chatter" prior to JonBenet's murder that seems too coincidental. There was a number of people who did not not like John Ramsey and Access Graphics. The billion dollar sales and pictures of JonBenet in the local news might have amplified their feelings.

I am not home and can't give you the page # from the paperback but I just read it within the last couple days - in a chapter about different suspects - first 1/2 of the book.

From "Angie" No. 8
http://www.webbsleuths.com/cgi-bin/dcf/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=280&forum=DCForumID101

"I have met both Jackie and Chris.I know a little about both of them.I even went to Dakota one time years ago when it was just starting.I know that CW hated big business and thought that John Ramsey was working with Lockheed building guns to kill third world people.I also have heard that he had a friend that worked for Access Graphics.

Jackie and Chris seemed like pretty nice people to me. But over these years I have heard alot of things that would lead me to believe that he could possibly be the killer. I would only wish for him that if he is the killer that he would turn himself in. Knowing him the little I do I believe this could be the case of some misdirected anger and that he would really not want to hurt anyone else.He is a very smart man and if he did do this I think that he could help by turning himself in and writing.

I have talked to Jackie in the last few years and she cannot say for 100% that she knows Chris did this. But she sure has some very good questions.If she didn't no one would have heard anything she had to say.

As far as Dakota. She was in the start up phase of her business.I eventually ended up doing her book for her so I know.She doubled her business every year she had it.As far as the LLC you have it wrong Don. The business was not in dissaray.This was still in start-up mode when Jonbenet was murdered."

So, WHO IS ANGIE?

Angie, please talk to us.

page 172-173 - Linda Hoffmann-Pugh and Jeff Merrick

page 173 Another former Access Graphics employee had been fired because he had physically assaulted one of our female employees while at work. In his departing interview he sarcastically told his boss, who had just adopted a baby from China, "I hope you enjoy your new daughter" and then left the room. The man took this as a threat against his adopted daughter. That released employee had, in fact, been inside our house in the fall of 1996 to do some work on our Apple computer.

page 173-174 Bill/Janet McReynolds and the play "Hey Rube"

page 174 Jessie McReynolds

page 211 - Transients (house-sitter across the alley, CU art student who did the "Daddy's Little Hooker" display)

page 213-215 Chris Wolf

What a Crowd!

Jane Stobie
-Access Graphics ex-employee with MBA
-did not like John Ramsey
-accused him of pedophilia
-talks to JonBenet in the afterlife (just like Gary Oliva)
-says JonBenet like a Butterfly and proves existence of God
-likes to hike in Chautauqua Park and find communications from JonBenet
-NewAge

ANGIE WHO?
-knew Chris Wolf
-did books for Jackie Dilson
-studied NewAge
-said Chris Wolf hated John Ramsey before

Jackie Dilson
-NewAge
-live-in girlfriend of Chris Wolf

Chris Wolf
-Journalist
-live-in boyfriend of Jackie Dilson
-did not like Access Graphics and John Ramsey
-accused John Ramsey of selling guns to 3rd world country
-student to Journalist Prof: Santa McReynolds

Santa McReynolds:
-Journalism Prof retired
-knew JonBenet personally
-married to Janet McReynolds
-has a harp with a name space reserved for JonBenet

Janet McReynolds
-Theatre/Movie Critic
-married to Santa McReynolds
-wrote the play: Hey, Rube
-theorizes how murder victims incite their own death

Gary Oliva
-had dinners and picked-up mail at St.Thomas Aquinas (near JonBenet)
-stun gun, tapes, previous molestation and attempt to strangle
-communicates with JonBenet in the afterlife
-confesses to doing something bad to a little girl at the same time

Thomas Aquinas
-7 ways to test the existence of God
-7 deadly sins (Dante, Paradise Lost)
-Crime Movie "Seven" = "Victor" of SBTC

Thomas Helgoth?
Judith?
...........

And maybe it was just a passerby with a penchant for literature.

Now there's an aspect I never considered. What if it was someone who didn't care for Merrick, knew amount of money involved and decided to frame JM?

Rather far-fetched, but stranger things have happened.

Rainsong

thanks Margoo - I thought this was quite interesting - and had been in the R's house

For example,

Glen Meyer, the Barnhill's boarder - $70,000 and a prior assault(?), failed polygraph (?), failed handwriting (?) - p 315 PMPT paperback

Bud & Sandra Henderson - each owed AG $18,000 - p 182 PMPT pb

There's also the possibility of a son of someone the Ramseys knew. Wasn't there someone that was fired from Access because he lied on his application, saying he didn't smoke? Lockheed had a strict policy on smoking.

A vendetta clearly seems to have been communicated in the note.

Yeah, those highly paid and dedicated people who work in halfway houses, particularly on holiday night-shifts keep really meticulous records that can be relied on without question.

Angie contradicts Chris Wolf's statement that he had no knowledge of and nothing against John Ramsey and Access Graphics prior to JonBenet's death. Angie even states that she thinks Chris Wolf might have killed JonBenet. Isn't this kind of statement a concern to the police?

Jameson, since this statement was made public, can you not trace the address of Angie.

Like Braveheart, I don't think Angie's statement was a prank.

Chris talked about JR AFTER the murder - I have never heard that there is evidence he spoke of JR to anyone before, not on a personal level.

How many people talk in percentages? "you stand a 100% chance of getting her back"

How many people get their s's in "disarray"? "We respect your bussiness" "your daughter in our posession"

Just wondered.

I believe that the particular misspelling you mentioned was not only intentional, but a kind of joke. He took the 's' from possession and put it into business. He knows that the authorities will be looking for misspellings, and he knows that perpetrators often purposefully misspell words in order to mislead the investigators. So he's throwing them an obviously purposefully misspelled word --- and signifies that this is what he is doing and that he knows that they are looking for purposefully misspelled words by placing an oppositely purposefully misspelled word nearby. But this is interesting because one could argue that he actually did this because he can't stand disorder. He doesn't want to be thought of as a bad speller even though it would be better if we were. In other words, one could argue that the real reason he did this is because he's "anal" like ST. :-) This perpetrator has a childishly immature sense of humor.

I didn't realize you had an interest in genealogy.

Even though it is a bit off-topic, in my earlier post, I was tempted to quote one of my favorite lines from one of my favorite movies. "Blood Simple" has Abby (Frances McDormand) speaking with her lover, Ray (John Getz), about something she had earlier asked her scumbag husband and barowner, Marty (Dan Hedaya):

"If you're anal, how come I got to see a psychiatrist?"

Double "s" in dissaray;
The business was not in dissaray.

used percentage

"and she cannot say for 100% that she knows Chris did this"

Maybe just an indication/confirmation that others speak and spell the way the note-writer did...

I have been checking out alot of Angie Dickinson's movies plus the Rolling Stones. Think of anything else?

Terrance

Also, a couple things to add to Chris Wolf's section:

1) Jackie reported that he was out until 5am 12/26. When he came home he showered (which was unusual for pre-bedtime for him) AND he left DIRTY (and I do mean literally "Dirty") clothes on the floor in the bathroom.

2) CW had another little "run-in" with the law...when he went to a lady's house, knocked on the door, and exposed himself to her. Jameson has a copy of the police report somewhere.

Also, I didn't notice if you had the photographer listed. The strange thing he did was run through the middle of town stark naked, crying out that "I didn't do it" or "I didn't kill JonBenet" or something to that effect.

http://www.coloradoshakes.org/csf/research/plays/2g94.htm

In summary, this sounds a little like the betrayal of two former friends "that went to the mountains to find gold" (Merrick and John), except that it emphazes romance instead of success, as maybe in husband betrays wife for daughter, the incest angle. I believe the perp was accusing John of both so I find this very interesting...it fits the plan that I see in the note and crime scene.

This was produced in Boulder for the Colorado Shakespeare Festival at the University there in Boulder. Surprise, surprise.

Black tape, used in theatrical and movie productions mostly by grifs to tie electrical lines together, and for other miscellaneous odd jobs, and for art majors it is a recommended item to keep on hand.

It may be that the perpetrator has access to black duct tape through employment or hobby, but I think the primary purpose of using black duct tape in preference to grey or silver was to produce shock.

Try this and also scroll down to Channeling:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/newage.htm

"Also, I didn't notice if you had the photographer listed. The strange thing he did was run through the middle of town stark naked, crying out that "I didn't do it" or "I didn't kill JonBenet" or something to that effect."

Who knows? I remind myself that the various weird ways people react might be just due to the sudden world media attention and their defensive reaction towards suspicion by association. However, I get suspicious when I see a pattern of intent which could have led to incitement.

I understand you are referring to accusations of 1. corporate greed and 2. pedophilia, correct? If so, I concur.

But I also think there is an element of 'spiritualism' here as in the movie: "Se7en" which you have already elaborated on. This seems to be supported by the Christmas timing and how JonBenet was wrapped in a "papoose" in John Ramsey's words (I interpret that with "cacoon"). I think the perp was fantasizing that JonBenet was going to sleep and reawake. Her sleeping nightgown was placed next to her. Patsey and John were not the only religious people around.

I think Dave's thought on 118 and FBI challenge also plays into this complex motive. Hence the crime references. Complex and hard to trace evidence - possibly because there was more than one involved.

Two gentlemen, one "rich", one poor, both old, meet once a year at Thanksgiving. The man appearing to be wealthy finds the poor man and takes him to a restaurant to engoure himself on turkey dinner. Each feels he has done his part to help the other man. Turns out the rich man is not really rich, he is living a lie, having to go without eating three days to be the great fellow he thinks he ought to be to feed the poor man. THe poor man, it turns out, has just eaten, and well, before the rich man shows up. He feels it his duty to allow the rich man to buy him a second meal so the rich man feels good about himself. After stuffing down the second banquet, poor man collapses and is taken to the hospital where lo and behold, the rich man is collapsed from hunger. Clever story by O'Henry.

Something to say about rich men? And their hypocrisy?

>Nightgown was probably a matter of 'static cling' or
>something and once brought to the basement, puting it close
>to her was not some sort of ironic care, it was simply
>concealment.

I wanted to point out that according to Judge Carnes' decision, there was blood on the nightgown. Doesn't sound like a loving gesture, does it?

Fair enough and note again that I was raising the issue as "ironic". Again as above, I think there was an element of 'spiritualism' also included. This seems to be supported by the Christmas timing and how JonBenet was wrapped in a "papoose" in John Ramsey's words (I interpret that with "cacoon"). I think the perp was fantasizing that JonBenet was going to sleep and reawake. Her sleeping nightgown was placed next to her. Patsey and John were not the only religious people around. - I will say it again: It seems complex and either the perp is complex or maybe there was more than one involved.

Maybe there was the note writer upstairs and the Two Gentlemen were in the basement and then the notewriter came downstairs to tuck the girl in. Just supposing.

Any other thoughts of why the tuck-in or why the night gown? DocG said it might be John trying to sway any suspicion away from himself. But there seems something wrong with that.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/5046/ransom.html

(Excerpt from Pugh's analysis)
\The Ramsey case is not the first ransom note and kidnapping scenario used to draw attention away from a murder. In 1978, the murder of Gail Jackson and several other women occurred in Columbus, Georgia. There was a ransom note in this case also and parallels can be drawn between the notes in both the Ramsey and Jackson cases. Below, the first lines of the notes are compared.

Ramsey: "We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction."
Jackson: "We are an organization composed of seven members."

The purpose of these statements is to suggest that a group of people is involved in the crime. Initial examination of the Jackson note revealed that the seven men mentioned were seven white men and experts, who examined the note in March of 1978, felt that it was a "bogus" ransom note. By looking in the opposite direction of what the staged note implied, experts concluded that the offender was a black man, "possibly an artillery man or military policeman" who was solely responsible for the murder. William Hance, a black man in an artillery unit at Fort Bennings, was later arrested in the Jackson case. He confessed that the note was a "hoax" and he was the only person involved in the murders.

Like the Jackson case, the Ramsey note states: "WE are a group of individuals" that are involved in this crime. The use of the pronoun, WE, suggests yet another "bogus" ransom note that is designed to draw attention away from the truth. Therefore, it is probable that the note writer and killer of JonBenét are one in the same -- an individual who acted alone.

The "note" makes other announcements that provide hints that someone from Access Graphics could be involved in the crime. The use of the $118,000.00 figure and "WE respect your Bu(s)siness" were intended to create this impression. Looking in the opposite direction of what the reference in the note implies, it can be concluded that the killer is an individual not connected with Mr. Ramsey's "bu(s)siness" or a "small foreign faction."

Once again I am torn between a brilliant premeditated murder with symbolic clues to motivation or a fantasy murder when opportunity knocked. Are we are giving the killer too much credit for his brilliance or is the murder brilliant because he got lucky and the BPD screwed up?

Another thing the tape, I like Dave looked up black duct tape and it is used in S&M...now they have the color red as well. It seems to me,
the fact that he brought the tape, and Dave could be right it was used for shock value, he intended on her being found dead and in the basement.

If more then one, I think they could have subdued a small struggling child, if the intent was kidnapping. One alone may have underestimated how hard it would be to subdue JBR....and could have panicked.

I agree with you Maikai....if there would have been more than one...I think she would have been taken from the home. If I understood you correctly.

Question...does anyone remember what time the hang up call was made that morning? I was thinking around nine or ten....anyone?