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Forum Name: old depo and interview threads
Topic ID: 55
#0, Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 complete
Posted by jameson on Nov-15-03 at 10:25 PM
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-03 AT 10:59 PM (EST)
 
I will just hit the highlights and comment - - feel free to join in

305
12 CHIEF BECKNER: Let me ask you
13 this. Do you recall seeing any of the
14 names, you don't have to tell me the name,
15 that said, ah, we know that person?
16 THE WITNESS: Well, of course
17 they looked at Bill McReynolds. We know
18 that person. They looked at Linda Hoffman
19 Pugh, the housekeeper, and some family
20 members of hers. They looked at Chris Wolf,
21 of course. You know, and then there are
22 some people that have a record, you know,
23 that are kind of not so nice people like
24 this Helgoth and -- I mean, there are lots
25 of other names like that.

306
1 MR. WOOD: How many names, Ollie,
2 are we talking about? How many names would
3 you state right now?
4 MR. GRAY: That I would recommend
5 them look at or something?
6 MR. WOOD: Yes.
7 MR. GRAY: There are probably
8 six.
9 MR. WOOD: Other than the ones
10 that Patsy just went through?
11 MR. GRAY: Yes.
12 MR. WOOD: I am familiar with
13 names, and I don't remember them, Chief.
14 That is why I say, if you want us to get
15 the names. Have they been provided to the
16 Chief?
17 MR. GRAY: Probably all except
18 the last couple, the Westminster that I told
19 you about and that kind of stuff.
20 MR. LEVIN: I would suggest that,
21 if we are talking six or eight people, that,
22 when we finish with Mrs. Ramsey and get
23 Mr. Ramsey, perhaps you or your investigator
24 could get that list and we could talk about
25 it then.

307
1 MR. WOOD: Okay.
2 MR. LEVIN: Just for purposes of
3 keeping things going.
4 MR. WOOD: Is that all right?
5 CHIEF BECKNER: That's fine, but
6 nothing sticks out in your mind in terms
7 of --
8 THE WITNESS: Well, the most
9 recent thing that sticks out in my mind is
10 that Ollie obtained the Hi-Tec boots that
11 belonged to Helgoth, and that was very, you
12 know, surprising to me that he came up with
13 those. And I just am real curious as to
14 whether that -- you know, I don't know how
15 much of a footprint you all have, but does
16 it match and what have you done with that.
17 CHIEF BECKNER: That is something
18 we are still looking into.
19 Was Helgoth known, when that name
20 came up, was Helgoth somebody you knew prior
21 to this investigation?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
23 don't know what his business was or -- I
24 don't know any more about him than that.

K&C was asking Patsy for the RST suspect list - - they were not coming to her with suspects they wanted information on - - - while I have no problem with them asking for what the Ramsey investigators had uncovered, I am waiting for K&C to come up with questions based on what their investigators had unearthed.

I would point out how uninformed Patsy was on Helgoth - - she sure was not aggressively pushing him as a #1 suspect - - even though she had to be aware of the fact that some people were very excited about the possibility that Helgoth could have been the one.

He was in the area. He had Hi-Tec boots and a stun gun. He had an interest in little girls being kidnapped and murdered (hidden in his tapes). He was dead and the situation was interesting to say the least. Listed as a suicide, some think it was murder. And the timing - - the day after the DA - Hunter - said that the killer had made mistakes, would be identified.

The Ramseys always remained an arm's length from the whole thing - - for whatever reason - and we shouldn't judge them for doing what they had to to survive - they didn't get that close.


#1, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by jameson on Nov-15-03 at 10:33 PM
In response to message #0

19 MR. WOOD: You've got another
20 incident in Boulder nine months later, in all
21 fairness, where someone did camp out in the
22 house.
23 CHIEF BECKNER: That hasn't been
24 proven.
25 MR. WOOD: That is what the
1 parents say.
2 CHIEF BECKNER: That's what they
3 believe, yes, but that doesn't --
4 MR. WOOD: And they believe it to
5 this day, from what I'm told, concluding that
6 their daughter was a petite, small
7 14-year-old, didn't necessarily look her age.
8 THE WITNESS: And the girl who
9 was molested, this same incident, and
10 JonBenet attended the same dancing school.
11 CHIEF BECKNER: Right. We know
12 that.

Now why is Beckner trying to dismiss the similar case? The fact is that a mother and daughter did go home to their house, they did watch TV and then went to bed. When they went to bed they locked the house and - - - there was an intruder in the house then - - waiting for them to go to bed. he went into the girl's room - we call her Lucy. He molested her and the mother interrupted - - he ran out.

Dance West was the school attended by both JonBenét and Lucy - - but the police really were not interested in intruder suspects and didn't follow up on that lead.

How do I know? At the time, Frank Coffman and I were friends and he was talking to people at the dance studio - - they were waiting for the call that didn't come - - and didn't come - - and didn't come.

Lucy's family was very unhappy witht he police investigation and they hired PI Pete Peterson to work the case - and he was in touch with me as well.

Peterson later went public to talk about that case - Charlie Brenna broke the story and it went national.

But the BPD was obviously unimpressed - - and when Beckner said, "That hasn't been proven." - - it makes me laugh. His department did the shoddy work and then he used that shoddy work as some excuse to discount the similarities in the crimes.... just not right.


#2, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by jameson on Nov-15-03 at 10:36 PM
In response to message #1

14 MR. LEVIN: Mrs. Ramsey, I think
15 the question, and let me see if I can make
16 it very simple, that the chief was getting
17 at was Mr. Helgoth's name, was that a name
18 that was prior to the murder of your
19 daughter? I know since then you've became
20 familiar with it, but prior to the murder of
21 your daughter, was that a name you were
22 familiar with?
23 THE WITNESS: No.


OH - that made me angry - - why didn't K&C show Patsy photos of Helgoth and others - - ask if she knew him by face rather than by name?

I recognize the manager of my grocery store, a few of the cashiers, a few of the stock clerk - - but I don't know their names. No way.

This is crummy police work, IMO.


#3, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by jameson on Nov-15-03 at 10:40 PM
In response to message #2

Patsy: "... early on we
18 provided a list, Boulder police or whomever,
19 said who could -- is there anybody that
20 could be angry with you all or you know had
21 a reason or who had access to the -- I mean
22 because we made lengthy lists of those. And
23 I believe John, you know, mentioned Mr.
24 Merrick among that list because he had been
25 let go from Access.
1 And I remember very vividly that
2 the day he was going to be asked to let go,
3 I was afraid. Not unlike the postal
4 incidents that happen. I was just afraid
5 for my father and John and -- because you
6 never know what people are going to do when
7 they are asked to leave a company.
8 And subsequent to that, when he
9 was asked to leave, he made some threats to
10 John and I think maybe even to my father.
11 That -- I mean, I am paraphrasing. I don't
12 know exactly. You can ask John, but
13 something like you are going to be sorry. I
14 am going to bring this company to your
15 knees. Just really, you know, ugly.

She is answering a question here - - not accusing anyone - - just answering a question.


24 MR. WOOD: Right now I can tell
25 you, Chief, until you all can tell us
1 somebody has been cleared, I don't think
2 anybody that has been mentioned has ever, in
3 our mind, been taken off of possibilities.
4 I mean, you all haven't, as I
5 understand, you all haven't officially
6 cleared, I am not even sure beyond Burke,
7 John Andrew and Melinda.
8 I hear rumblings back from the
9 White camp that April of '97 allegedly he
10 was cleared, but as I remember what I
11 learned about it, it looked pretty qualified.
12 THE WITNESS: All right. Because
13 I don't know --
14 MR. WOOD: We are not here to
15 clear anybody. The question for her was
16 about --
17 CHIEF BECKNER: I am asking her
18 what she believes.
19 MR. WOOD: If she's heard anything
20 that's changed her -- any other additional
21 information about Merrick other than what you
22 already had given them earlier.
23 THE WITNESS: No.

Lin Wood made it clear that he and his clients were not clearing anyone - that was up to the investigators - - - and for this they were accused of throwing people under hte bus. As you can see, that is not what happened.


#4, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by jameson on Nov-15-03 at 10:42 PM
In response to message #3
A bit more on that subject - as you can see, Patsy is not accusing or pushing this suspect either.
21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mrs. Ramsey, is
22 there anything since June of 1998, any
23 contact at all you had with Mr. and Mrs.
24 Merrick which has increased or solidified
25 your belief that they are viable suspects in
1 the murder of your daughter?
2 A. I have not had any contact with
3 them.

#5, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by jameson on Nov-15-03 at 10:45 PM
In response to message #4

FINALLY - K&C ask about a suspect - - but notice that they don't explain who he is, don't share any photo or information...


13 MR. WICKMAN: Mrs. Ramsey, does
14 the name David C B**** mean anything
15 to you?
16 THE WITNESS: B****?
17 MR. WICKMAN: Yes, B-*-*-*-*.
18 THE WITNESS: I don't think so,
19 no.
20 MR. WICKMAN: Ollie, can you
21 write that name down?
22 MR. GRAY: Just did.
23 MR. WICKMAN: Thanks.

That was all - - they changed subjects immediately.


#6, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by jameson on Nov-15-03 at 10:47 PM
In response to message #5

24 Q. (By Mr. Wickman) I wanted to ask
25 you, since your relocation to Atlanta, have
1 you, John, or Burke had any credible threats
2 since your relocation here?
3 A. We have had, I don't know if they
4 have been threats, we have had a lot of
5 weirdos come calling.
6 Q. Physically to the house?
7 A. Yes.


There were no follow up questions to this either - -

Amazing how little time they spent on these topics after spending ao MUCH time on Burke's security with Susan Stine.


#7, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by jameson on Nov-15-03 at 10:53 PM
In response to message #6

23 Q. (By Chief Beckner) Would you be
24 willing to sign releases to allow us to
25 interview Ellis Armistead and David Williams?
1 MR. WOOD: I think we talked
2 about that, and I think that is something I
3 would address.
4 MR. LEVIN: I have proposed
5 written releases for both Patsy and John, and
6 when we leave this afternoon, I will leave
7 them with you and give you an opportunity to
8 look. It refers to the Colorado statute, so
9 you can have some time to look them over.
10 You can call me directly if you want to talk
11 about it.
12 MR. WOOD: Okay. Did you all
13 make a decision about whether you wanted to
14 talk with Ed Gelb, Cleve Baxter? I offered
15 them up for interviews with you, no holds
16 barred, waive the privilege.
17 CHIEF BECKNER: We may at some
18 time.
19 MR. WOOD: They talked to John
20 and Patsy. They interviewed them. So if
21 you will give me those, I will certainly --
22 MR. LEVIN: I will leave them
23 with you.
24 MR. WOOD: My concern, Bruce, and
25 obviously there are no secrets there, your
1 intentions, your being the prosecution's
2 intentions, are not clear to us. Obviously,
3 as an attorney, we have to always be
4 prepared for the worst case scenario. We
5 don't think it is likely or something that
6 should happen. So there is that balancing
7 of trying to get you information from Ellis
8 and David Williams that can help with the
9 investigation but yet still maintain certain
10 information that might be important in any
11 potential defense of the case.
12 MR. LEVIN: I understand.
13 CHIEF BECKNER: Anybody have
14 anything else?
15 MR. LEVIN: I do not.

About at the end - - and the prosecution clearly is not interested in asking Patsy about intruder suspects or their investigation in those areas - but they would like to interrogate the Ramsey lawyers and investigators - - - care to guess what the focus would be?

I think it is good that K&C no longer have any part in this investigation. The DA has the case and a special investigator and his team are working on it.

I admit to being anxious - - hard to be patient - but they are being methodical, following all leads and some cold trails and old memories...

Still, be patient - the handwriting will match SP's historical samples - - and the DNA evidence will never change. That and other evidence can nail the right guy.


#8, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by jameson on Nov-15-03 at 10:57 PM
In response to message #7

21 THE WITNESS: Could I ask who is
22 David B****?
23 MR. WICKMAN: Not at this time,
24 but I will talk to Mr. Wood.
25 MR. WOOD: Okay. Are you all
1 done with Patsy?
2 MR. LEVIN: We are. Thank you,
3 ma'am.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you so much.
5 CHIEF BECKNER: Thank you for
6 your time.
7 (Whereupon, the videotaped
8 interview of PATSY RAMSEY was concluded.)

That's it. folks.

Considering they flew 7 people to Atlanta for three days for this interview - I think they blew it big time. Could have brainstormed and shared and shown photos to try to find some answers - - but they did not.

I am terribly under impressed with K&C. If I ever need investigators, save me from that team!


#9, Jams --- Thanks!
Posted by Dave on Nov-16-03 at 02:04 AM
In response to message #8
Jams,

Thanks so much for posting the transcripts. They were very helpful in gaining insight into those interrogations. The transcripts draw a much worse picture than I had imagined previously. I'm sticking with my previous description of "malicious" because I think that that is exactly what these interrogations were. Some people don't see it because (I suspect) they don't really understand how some of the potential responses would have been used later.

When someone comes up to you and speaks very calmly and politely to you but backs you up against a knife blade held by someone else, then gives you a little push, it's still a malicious act despite the calmness with which it was done.


#10, RE: Jams --- Thanks!
Posted by Rainsong on Nov-16-03 at 09:38 AM
In response to message #9
Excellent analogy, Dave.

And yes, Jameson, thank you tremendously for the insight these transcripts have provided.

Rainsong


#11, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by one_eyed Jack on Nov-16-03 at 04:18 PM
In response to message #1
I read about this incident where the mother interupted the attack on her daughter, but I had no idea both children attended the same dance studio. My God, WHAT is the deal here? How could the BPD NOT look into this situation thoroughly?

#12, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by jameson on Nov-16-03 at 05:58 PM
In response to message #11
It sure has been an education, following the Ramsey case.

Cops can be a great help - - they can also screw up beyond all reason. They can be unreasonable and egotistical and single-minded and dangerous if they are against you.

Any time there is an interview, it is part of a record - - and the Ramseys should have taken advantage of this, I think. They should have pushed in with information, leads, tips, names - - forced K&C to deal with those things or risk being exposed when the transcript made it to others.

(Oh yeah, they never thought anyone would see this transcript. Maybe this is a good thing - - let all LE understand that what they do and say can be used against THEM sometimes as well.


#13, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by Margoo on Nov-17-03 at 12:40 PM
In response to message #12
That's it? Why didn't K&C carry on the interview with John? A whole lot of questions posed to Patsy had to do with things John would have known better, but were never asked of him. The RN was addressed to John. The content of the note referenced John. But these guys spend all this time asking Patsy questions and she answers them but repeatedly refers them to John for additional clarification and they never got back to questioning him on them?? I don't understand AT ALL how anyone can view these interviews as uncooperative on the part of John or Patsy. I can see someone viewing Lin Wood as disruptive (very). I cannot believe how these interviewers dropped the ball time and time again. Where was Day 2 with John? Many questions asked needed his input and I don't see them asked of him.

#14, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by jameson on Nov-17-03 at 01:23 PM
In response to message #13
There was an interview with john - - look at the older threads

#15, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by Margoo on Nov-17-03 at 04:06 PM
In response to message #14
Sorry, I was not clear. I meant, why wasn't John re-interviewed on the second day, following the same line of questioning that Patsy went through regarding the investigation done by Armistead and Ollie Grey and the Merrick's and Helgoth and so on. It seems to me that the bulk of the interview was with Patsy who seemed to defer to John's knowledge and to suggest the interviewers ask HIM those questions. I (wrongly) expected to see the interviewers do some follow up questions with John on the second day.

#16, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by jameson on Nov-17-03 at 10:49 PM
In response to message #15
Patsy was interviewed on the 28th - they finished up with her on the 29th and then they interviewed John.

I agree the questions seem incomplete.


#17, RE: Patsy - Atlanta - Day 2 - 1
Posted by Margoo on Nov-18-03 at 02:19 AM
In response to message #16
Well, thank you for straightening me out! What a day! I thought the first postings of John's interview preceded Patsy's interview. I'm giving my head a shake.