Here we are at seven-plus years.

We are not entirely agreed on the various possible crimes: kidnapping, molestation, murder for enjoyment, murder for witness disposal.

We are not entirely agreed on the precipitating chronology: long simmering grudge versus hyper-emotional reaction to the very recent newspaper article. Or all the myriad intermediary possibilities.

We are not agreed on the geography: Immediate neighborhood, general neighborhood, Boulder, Denver, Michigan, Timbuktu.

We are not agreed on the target: Parents as primary, secondary or not really targets at all.

We don't agree on the duration of the strangulation or its manner.

We don't agree on the duration and enjoyment of the "other activities" in which he engaged.

Ofcourse there is also such matters as: dna sampling and testing, evidence assessment (such as ignoring the rogue dna and duct tape manufacture).

Sure, there is indeed progress. Its no longer an official witchhunt. Its an investigation instead of a media campaign of police intimidation by innuendo.

But why can't we find this guy?

One possible reason ofcourse is that we have very little feedback on such things as dna results, etc. We don't even know if Gary Oliva's prints are infact in the database, we only assume so and can not imagine why they would not be there, yet we don't know for sure.

Even those brave and adventursome posters who have been taking an active, and at times risky, role in some peripheral investigative matters have been coming up empty.

One poster spend countless hours visiting websites not normally viewed by well brought up young mothers living in suburbia and caring for young children but turned up nothing but her stomach.

One poster tracked down esoteric leads involving an international business of a somewhat murky nature and used up alot of favors that various officals owed her, but came up totally empty.

One poster entered the cyberworld's nether regions and learned a great deal more than she ever wanted to know about 'alternative practices' but made no progress on the case.

Why is nothing making sense?

That is why this is a great mystery - - so many possibilities and only one true answer.

But the evidence is there - the killer can be identified - - and then we can only hope he will tell us the whole truth - - we have so many questions.

The Ramsey case is a difficult one. I've no doubt the offender intentionally muddied the waters in some regards. That complicates the case, so several different avenues will have to be investigated.

It's frustrating there hasn't been a hit in the DNA databases, as of yet. Does this mean the offender hasn't committed any other violent crimes or that his DNA is sitting on a shelf somewhere waiting to be tested?

We're doing the best we can do by keeping the discussion alive and doing our own independant research. Because information only flows one way between concerned citizens and LE, we can't follow up on anything more than what has been made public.

I would not be at all surprised to know the offender's name is in the file, and it is only a matter of time before it is his turn to be investigated. This is one of the reasons I do wish Boulder would hire more investigators. It is going to take a very long time for just one or two investigators to run down all the leads and tips that came in over the last seven years.

>The Ramsey case is a difficult one. I've no doubt the
>offender intentionally muddied the waters in some regards.
Yes, indeed. And I hope he was not skilled enough to plant dna!!

>It's frustrating there hasn't been a hit in the DNA databases
Yes, particularly since so many good suspects would have been in those databases.

>and doing our own independant research.
Again, hats off to the courageous ones whose 'independent research' has involved not just time and effort but also involved exposing themselves to no small measure of danger.

>I would not be at all surprised to know the offender's name is in the file
Quite possibly, but I tend to think not.

>It is going to take a very long time for just one or two
>investigators to run down all the leads and tips
They probably have not located much less categorized them yet.

I wonder about the DNA. I had heard from reliable sources that there 4 four markers. I know that 4 markers are enough to eliminate a suspect. However, I don't believe 4 are enough to identify someone beyond a reasonable doubt.

In some states, DNA from an offender only hits the database if it's a sexual offense. This crime had sexual overtones that may have been part of an elaborate smoke screen.

Bottom line, if this guy wasn't a true sex offender, then a DNA match might not happen regardless.

Some of the dna-containing evidence yielded only a few markers, but the second blood spot in the panties yielded 9 and was consistent with each of the two other dna tests, so the yield is now 10 out of the 13 which is suitable for the CODIS database.

Note: I would tend to agree that it is a bit unlikely that the perpetrator is a sex offender any more than he is associated with a small foreign faction. Most likely he is a heterosexual male.

>The Ramsey case is a difficult one. I've no doubt the
>offender intentionally muddied the waters in some regards.
"Yes, indeed. And I hope he was not skilled enough to plant dna!!"

Oh gosh. I hope not. Then again, DNA under the fingernails of JonBenét in combination with the gouge marks on her neck doesn't seem contrived, and there wasn't much DNA left behind.

>and doing our own independant research.
"Again, hats off to the courageous ones whose 'independent research' has involved not just time and effort but also involved exposing themselves to no small measure of danger."

I couldn't agree more.

>I would not be at all surprised to know the offender's name is in the file
"Quite possibly, but I tend to think not."

Something like 75% of investigations have the name of the killer in their file within the first week.

>It is going to take a very long time for just one or two
>investigators to run down all the leads and tips
"They probably have not located much less categorized them yet."

It is a huge file. It is going to take time to go through it. Nothing stops them from following up on names, though.

Just wanted to comment that the BPD is available as manpower to assist Mr. Bennett and Mr. Smit according to the letter Mary Keenan wrote to Lin Wood back in December 2002. The "to do" list must be overwhelmingly long and cannot be handled by just two men (two women maybe, but ... *grin*).

>Just wanted to comment that the BPD is available as manpower
>to assist Mr. Bennett and Mr. Smit according to the letter
>Mary Keenan wrote to Lin Wood back in December 2002.
Yes, but I think that is a "political" statement so as pouring oil on troubled waters so as to maintain some semblance of a relationship between the BPD and the DA's office. It should not be taken to mean that DA-Keenan is actually going to trust those bumbling obsessive dolts at the BPD.

>and cannot be handled by just two men (two women maybe, but ... *grin*).

Actually, most of the progress on this case seems to indeed have come from women. Trip DeMuth and Lou Smit made initial contributions that are much valued. So have some of the others on the case. However humorous the comment is, Winston Churchill's statement should be recalled: They also serve who only stand and wait.

I can't post on webbsleuths.org where the Butts and Jones forums are and am just checking to make sure I can here.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-04 AT 03:03 PM (EST)
 
"Most likely he is a heterosexual male."

Most likely this same heterosexual male knew the lay out of the house, imho. (I guess he could have got there early on and studied up on it.)

>Most likely knew the lay out of the house
It is possible that he knew the layout of the house but there are no indications that he did and certainly that is insufficient to deem it to be "most likely".

There was sufficient ambient lighting, particularly with the aid of the Christmas tree lights and all those oft-repeated stories about a 'virtually secret room' that was 'hard to find' and the like have absolutely no basis in fact. Even those utter clods at the BPD found the room, they didn't open the door and look inside, but they found the room! And lets face it, them BPD-types ain't quite stellar in their abilities.

Certainly. He probably didn't know the layout of the house at all, just had a nose for that far away room. Fine by me. :)

Where would you 'hide' a body if not in a "far away room" in the basement? Making it sound like it is hard to find is like saying the meter man has a hard time finding the meter when he comes in to all our homes to read the meters. Have you ever heard of one who couldn't just walk directly to the room that has the meters? I really don't like this perpetuation of the mythical "maze". I don't believe this perp was really the moron that a suggestion of being unable to find his way around the home suggests. (I also don't believe he was any genius, either.)

compared to the rest of the house. It was only under the orignal part of the house---before it had been expanded. You had the train room, and the room beneath the broken window---and the boiler/furnace area, with a hallway.