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Forum Name: more and more JBR
Topic ID: 2105
#0, No recent or remote ... trauma
Posted by jameson on Jan-27-04 at 03:46 PM
The autopsy described the injuries to Jonbenét's genitals and then ends with this.

"No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified."

To me that means no evidence of prior injuries. Period.

Anyone care to play devil's advocate here and interpret it differently?

If that is true - no prior abuse - then the blood in her panties - and the DNA mixed with that blood - is new and evidence associated with the crime.

The newinvestigators know this - they are doing the DNA tests even as we speak - - WHY is the BORG online having such a hard time acceptint hat?

WHY are they still trying to revise the 911 tape? Why deny that the panties were JonBenét's and no one changed her panties that night?

The BORG makes no sense to me.

TheDNA makes lots of sense - and the killer can still be identified and prosecuted, convicted, punished.


#1, RE: No recent or remote ... trauma
Posted by jameson on Jan-27-04 at 04:47 PM
In response to message #0
On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semi fluid blood is present in the skin of the fourchette and the vestibule. Inside the vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice. A1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1 X 1 cm hymeneal orifice. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen. On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violet discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three eighths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue discloses no hemorrhage. A minimal amount of semi liquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault. No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I see nothing about old bruises or scars or injuries.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Genitalia: The upper portions of the vaginal vault contain no abnormalities. The prepubescent uterus measures 3 X 1 X 0.8 cm and is unremarkable. The cervical os contains no abnormalities. Both fallopian tubes and ovaries are prepubescent and unremarkable by gross examination.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nothing here either - the size is not problematic - there is no evidence of prior abuse here. Nothing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. The smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

the "chronic inflammation" has been described as an irritation consistant with a little girl not wiping herself properly - - - a vast number of little girls have redness and irritation in that area because of that.

There was NOTHING in the autopsy that described a child who had been sexually abused before the night of her murder.


#2, RE: No recent or remote ... trauma
Posted by Margoo on Jan-27-04 at 05:24 PM
In response to message #1
LAST EDITED ON Jan-27-04 AT 05:24 PM (EST)
 
On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violet discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three eighths of an inch.

Is this where Rita (??) jumped to the conclusion that Patsy hit JB with the flashlight in the crotch area? A FAINT bruise an inch by less than a half inch in dimension? That could easily have happened earlier in the day while bike riding -- so minor that it was not worth mentioning --, BUT it could also have been caused by a finger(?) or ... ??? ... occurring during the assault(?).


#3, RE: No recent or remote ... trauma
Posted by Margoo on Jan-27-04 at 05:28 PM
In response to message #2
A minimal amount of semi liquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault.


Anyone wish to comment?


#4, RE: No recent or remote ... trauma
Posted by jameson on Jan-27-04 at 05:36 PM
In response to message #3
I would guess blood and urine mixed.

#5, "The Pathology Guy," who
Posted by Maikai on Jan-27-04 at 11:31 PM
In response to message #4
I think is brilliant, has an interesting discussion of signs of sexual abuse on his website, and notes that in the case of JBR her hymen was described as normal. There's a lot of information there, but a must read. He talks about cases he's testified on, where there were charges of sexual abuse, and the pathology didn't support it:

http://www.pathguy.com/abuse.htm


#6, RE: "The Pathology Guy," who
Posted by DonBradley on Jan-28-04 at 05:26 AM
In response to message #5
>her hymen was described as normal.
I think most of these 'prior existing sexual abuse' accusations stem from people who react to the pageant participation and consider that to be an example of pathology. From the assumption that the parents are not described as normal, they see all sorts of things, including sexual abuse. A pathologist's statement that contradicts their views is simply going to be dismissed by them as would any evidence that pageant participation does not mean pedophilia.

#7, The pageants and pedophilia......
Posted by Maikai on Jan-28-04 at 08:23 AM
In response to message #6
Good summation, Don. The pageants influenced Wecht earlyon...and then there was Marilyn what's her name, spouting off about her experience, with the tape signifying you keep your mouth shut. You never hear anything about the thousands of young girls that participate in them, and go on to lead successful abuse-free lives.

#8, RE: Birefringent Material
Posted by Margoo on Jan-29-04 at 04:43 PM
In response to message #7
What do you think the odds are that the birefringent material was from the varnished paint-brush handle? Do you think the end of the paintbrush (that is missing) was used to assault JB? Or, do you think a bit of the varnish got on the perp's finger and that it was a digital assault?

Or, do you think the birefringent material was from something like a bit of talcum powder?

FWIW, I'd go with digital assault. I think the killer broke the paintbrush into three parts, throwing one piece back into the paint tote, using one for the construction of the garrote, and the third bit was stuffed in his pocket or misplaced amongst all the junk in the basement or rolled under something and not discovered.

Does anyone know what the 3 lengths of paintbrush were?


#9, RE: Birefringent Material
Posted by Rainsong on Jan-29-04 at 04:49 PM
In response to message #8
The supposition of the end of the paintbrush being used isn't based only on the birefrigent material but also on some cellulose being found in JonBenet's vaginal tract. Cellulose--as in wood fiber.

Birefringence is a fancy word for 'shiny' and indicates the material is of a crystalline structure (microscopically). That could include either the varnish from the paint brush or talcum. Probably not enough of a sample to discover the source.

Rainsong


#10, Margoo said
Posted by one_eyed Jack on Jan-29-04 at 06:52 PM
In response to message #9
'On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violet discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three eighths of an inch.'

"Is this where Rita (??) jumped to the conclusion that Patsy hit JB with the flashlight in the crotch area? A FAINT bruise an inch by less than a half inch in dimension? That could easily have happened earlier in the day while bike riding -- so minor that it was not worth mentioning --, BUT it could also have been caused by a finger(?) or ... ??? ... occurring during the assault(?)."

I think this is where most of the supposition about prior abuse came from. By the sound of the autopsy report, it does sound like there was a faint bruise there. I don't know that enough time had passed in the murder for her to actually bruise, although, I could see the faint beginnings of a bruise starting to form rather quickly. There is nothing else in the autopsy report to lead anyone to believe she had prior sexual abuse injuries. Nothing in the investigation that came up to lead anyone to believe something like that was happening. She did get a new bike that day, though, didn't she? I don't know about anyone else, but I remember my experiences with new bikes....ouch.


#11, RE: Birefringent Material
Posted by one_eyed Jack on Jan-29-04 at 07:00 PM
In response to message #8
>What do you think the odds are that the birefringent
>material was from the varnished paint-brush handle? Do you
>think the end of the paintbrush (that is missing) was used
>to assault JB? Or, do you think a bit of the varnish got on
>the perp's finger and that it was a digital assault?

With the combination of birefringement material and the celulose, I tend to think the paintbrush handle was used.

>FWIW, I'd go with digital assault. I think the killer broke
>the paintbrush into three parts, throwing one piece back
>into the paint tote, using one for the construction of the
>garrote, and the third bit was stuffed in his pocket or
>misplaced amongst all the junk in the basement or rolled
>under something and not discovered.

I wouldn't be surprised if the missing portion of the paintbrush handle was still in the house but overlooked by LE. Although, you'd think it would have been discovered by now if that were the case. If the paintbrush handle was used, it seems there would evidence of it on the portion left at the crime scene. I haven't seen any information released on this.

>Does anyone know what the 3 lengths of paintbrush were?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you wondering why it was broken into three pieces?


#12, RE: "The Pathology Guy," who
Posted by one_eyed Jack on Jan-29-04 at 07:10 PM
In response to message #6
>I think most of these 'prior existing sexual abuse'
>accusations stem from people who react to the pageant
>participation and consider that to be an example of
>pathology. From the assumption that the parents are not
>described as normal, they see all sorts of things, including
>sexual abuse. A pathologist's statement that contradicts
>their views is simply going to be dismissed by them as would
>any evidence that pageant participation does not mean
>pedophilia.

I think you're right. The pageant participation seems to have influenced opinions about JonBenet being "sexualized" early on.


#13, RE: "The Pathology Guy," who
Posted by Margoo on Jan-30-04 at 01:03 AM
In response to message #12
>Does anyone know what the 3 lengths of paintbrush were?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you wondering why it was broken into three pieces?

The autopsy report gives us the length of the piece of paintbrush that was attached to the ligature (4.5 inches). What were the lengths of the other two pieces?


#14, RE: "The Pathology Guy," who
Posted by Rainsong on Jan-30-04 at 07:14 AM
In response to message #13
I don't believe those measurements have been made public. For us to discover them, we'd have to know the make (manufacturer, size) and style of paintbrush.

Rainsong


#17, RE: No recent or remote ... trauma
Posted by one_eyed Jack on Feb-01-04 at 09:14 AM
In response to message #4
>I would guess blood and urine mixed.

Could be. I'm guessing white and red blood cells from the vaginal injury.


#15, Paintbrush segments
Posted by DonBradley on Jan-30-04 at 10:01 AM
In response to message #0
I understand that the 'size' of the paintbrush has been released, atleast its designation. I don't recall now what it was, perhaps "size 5".
However, I believe that such a designation would relate to the size of the bristles, not the length of the handled.
I'm fairly certain that a local art supply store would be likely to stock only a few such brushes, so its lengthy might be surmized from what is locally available for purchase.

#16, Margoo asked:
Posted by one_eyed Jack on Jan-30-04 at 01:32 PM
In response to message #15
The autopsy report gives us the length of the piece of paintbrush that was attached to the ligature (4.5 inches). What were the lengths of the other two pieces?

I don't know for sure about the missing piece, but the part with the bristles is in the photo of the paint tote. Looks like just a couple of inches including the bristles. So far, that would make the paintbrush 6.5 to 7.5" or so. I believe brushes come in standard sizes, so it may be possible to look at the brush and figure out how long it was. Any artists here who can identify what that particular bristle was for and how long it is?