Larry Schiller and Marc Klaas were on "Hardball"<BR>with Chris Matthews on June 13th, The subject was the similarities between the JonBenét Ramsey and Elizabeth Smart cases.<P> <BR> Larry Schiller: In the JonBenet Ramsey case, the parents went to police immediately through attorneys. And the attorneys decided to treat the parents as if they were guilty, as if they had something to hide. <P> Chris Matthews: Lawrence Schiller is the author of "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" about the JonBenet Ramsey case. And Marc Klaas is, of course, an advocate for missing children. <P> Let me ask you, Lawrence, does this smell like the JonBenet Ramsey case? A wealthy family with a big house. Suspicion moving sometimes towards them, sometimes other ways. <P> Larry Schiller: Well, I don't think whether it's a wealthy family or big or small, the circle of identity always starts around the family. You have to search those people out first, interrogate them. You have to look at the crime scene. And you have to see if there's anything different than what would exist with that family living there. You have to remember that the<BR> forensics evidence of the family is going to be every place. So at first, you see what is different about the crime scene. Now obviously, at the very beginning, they brought in dogs, air scent dogs that might track the young lady's scent in a vehicle or some other and ground dogs that would track the, the young lady's disappearance by the ground. Now this is very careful expertise. And the police, rest assured, are not leaking the most important evidence. They may even be leaking stuff to point the public and the media in a different direction because they've got to keep secret that evidence that they think links somebody potentially to the crime because once that evidence is out there, it's like a contaminated crime scene.<BR> Because anybody can pick it up, a copycat. The knowledge of evidence is the worst thing to the police. They've got to keep that evidence secret. And I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there's disinformation being linked to protect the finding of this young<BR> lady. <P> Chris Matthews: I guess I don't quite get it. Why would evidence that the police<BR> had in hand that would point to a culprit, why would that be damaging for them... <P> Larry Schiller: It's because... <P> Chris Matthews: if that's to be made public? <P> Larry Schiller: Because they want to use it at a trial, they want to use it at a<BR> preliminary hearing. They don't want anybody to know it. They have to have<BR> probable<BR> cause to search and rescue. And the knowledge that they have that nobody else<BR> would have is crucial in a conviction. <P> Chris Matthews: Marc Klaas, what do you hear in this case that reminds of your<BR> own case where you lost your daughter? I mean, here's a case that went right into<BR> a<BR> home. It's a, it's a, we don't know what it is. But it certainly is a crime that began<BR> in a home, like yours did. <P> Marc Klaas: Well, there's two things that are, certainly, it, it did start in the home.<BR> There was another witness when the abduction<BR> took place. But from that point on, things are very different. In this case, the<BR> abductor told the little girl to put on her shoes, and he gave her that<BR> consideration. In our<BR> case and in the Danielle van Dam case, another very big case, right, there was no<BR> consideration for the children. So for some reason or another, he was really, really<BR> concerned about her well being at that particular moment. And I think also, it's<BR> important to add onto what Mr. Schiller was saying, which was totally dead right,<BR> the<BR> family has to eliminate themselves as suspects. They have to work very hard with<BR> law enforcement to do that. And apparently, that hasn't been accomplished yet,<BR> although it's a week later. But again, it's a huge, extended family. <P> Larry Schiller: Right. <P> Chris Matthews: The fact that they held a press conference today, gentlemen,<BR> does that suggest to you that they're not satisfied with the way the police are<BR> handling it in<BR> terms of public information and that they're they're realizing that they have to go<BR> to the extreme step of holding a press conference today to make clear that they<BR> are not guilty? <P> Marc Klaas: Well, I'll tell you, I, for one, would, I would never concern myself with<BR> those kinds of things. <P> Larry Schiller: Right. <P> Marc Klaas: You know, we were always totally focused on finding Polly. <P> Larry Schiller: Right. <P> Chris Matthews: Yeah. <P> Marc Klaas: Anything that came out in the press was, was,was discounted by us.<BR> We weren't paying attention to it. <P> Larry Schiller: Chris? <P> Marc Klaas: We were moving forward. <P> Larry Schiller: Yeah. Yeah. You have to look at some careful things. Look at the<BR> Smith case where the mother there started to talk about the child in the past<BR> tense, which led the police in a certain direction and eventually to uncover the<BR> fact that she was employ, involved in the crime. You know, we don't know whether<BR> this<BR> family is talking present tense, past tense. There are many things. We don't know<BR> whether the reason the child, the sister cannot identify the abductor is because<BR> there<BR> was a mask over his face, a ski mask, a stocking. We have no way of knowing,<BR> really, the truth of what the police have, and we have to protect that. <P> You know, this is where journalism and investigation hits head on. The public has a<BR> right to know. There's no question about that. Because if there's a killer out there,<BR> you need to protect the public from that killer doing a crime again. But usually, in<BR> these types of cases, the person that does an abduction is not going to go out<BR> and<BR> abduct a second or a third person. So it is right for the police to keep this<BR> evidence secret so they can use it properly. And I have to tell you, there are many<BR> questions about the abduction, what that child saw and, you know, whether the<BR> man was tall or short, whether he had a mask on, you know, but--dark clothes,<BR> light<BR> clothes. You know, in the confusion, there may be very little evidence. Or there<BR> may be a lot of evidence that we need to protect if we're going to find this killer. <P> Chris Matthews: Let me talk about this with Marc Klaas. You said that the first<BR> instinct that you had when your daughter was missing was to help the police find<BR> her. <P> Marc Klaas: Yeah. <P> Chris Matthews: Does that seem to be the first instinct of this Smart family here?<BR> Or is it to pro, or to make sure that they don't get pointed to? <P> Marc Klaas: Well, listen, Chris, I think that you leave no stone unturned, and they<BR> claim they've done that. But there's a very crucial thing going on here. That little<BR> girl, Mary Katherine, was in the room when this crime occurred. She has images of<BR> what happened that evening. I'm very concerned that they haven't brought in<BR> famed forensic artist Jeanne Boylan to talk to this little girl and try to put those<BR> images on paper so that we can look for them. They've already put two other men<BR> on<BR> paper. We know who those guys are. One of them was brought in very quickly. The<BR> other one, they're going after him. They'll probably have him any minute now.<BR> Neither of them had anything to do with it, but... <P> Larry Schiller: But Mr. Klaas, you... <P> Marc Klaas: Sure. <P> Larry Schiller: have to protect the child and the psychology. Look at what<BR> happened in the Ra... <P> Marc Klaas: No, this is life and death. No, this is... <P> Larry Schiller: Look at what happened in the Ramsey Case. <P> Marc Klaas: This is life and... <P> Larry Schiller: You had a brother there. <P> Marc Klaas: This is... <P> Larry Schiller: You know, and... <P> Marc Klaas: This... <P> Larry Schiller: And you have to interview that child properly... <P> Marc Klaas: Yes. <P> Larry Schiller: so that the child does not suppress the little knowledge that she<BR> has, and I'm sure experts are doing that. You've got to keep that knowledge on<BR> the surface so the child doesn't suppress it. <P> Marc Klaas: As of two days ago, the police had spoken with that little girl three<BR> times. She's not staying with her parents. She's surrounded by other family<BR> members. Listen, Jeanne Boylan has an expertise at this. She has an expertise in<BR> psychology. She has that background. <P> Larry Schiller: Right. <P> Marc Klaas: She also has the artistic background. This is a life and death situation<BR> with her sister. We don't have time to mess around with the various pop<BR> psychologies. We have to get somebody in there. We have to find out who this<BR> guy is. We put it on paper. We reel him in. And we find out what happened to that<BR> little girl. <P> Chris Matthews: Lawrence Schiller... <P> Marc Klaas: Bottom line. <P> Chris Matthews: ...what's the, what's the advantage of, of delay here in, in<BR> interviewing the child or getting the child to help with the... <P> Larry Schiller: Well, the child doesn't feel... <P> Chris Matthews: ...construction of, of a portrait. <P> Larry Schiller: The, the child's been interviewed three times. So the pre, the<BR> question is you don't want to pressure the child. You don't want the child to run<BR> away<BR> from the information because she may feel guilt. She may feel that she did the<BR> wrong thing. She should have screamed. She should have hollered. She should not<BR> have<BR> waited as the abductor told her to. So that child is probably one of the most<BR> important pieces of evidence, and it's got to be dealt with. And you have to leave<BR> it in the<BR> hands of those people that are experts. Now Mr. Klaas may be absolutely right.<BR> They--the police need to reach out to somebody from another community or<BR> another<BR> jurisdiction. <P> Chris Matthews: Hmm. <P> Larry Schiller: And rest assure, you know, after the JonBenet Ramsey case, there<BR> were an, and after Mr. Klaas' case itself, there were guidelines written for<BR> police departments, disseminated all across the country. <P> Chris Matthews: Right. <P> Marc Klaas: That's true. <P> Larry Schiller: So hopefully, the blue book... <P> Chris Matthews: What about the guidelines for a family in this case? Marc, do you<BR> think the lawyers in the case of, the family lawyers may be advising the family to<BR> behave in this manner? And would you advise them to accept legal counsel or think<BR> in terms... <P> Mark Klaas: No. <P> Chris Matthews: ...of what they want to do in terms of helping to catch the kid? <P> Marc Klaas: Chris, you know, I'm an advocate of a very aggressive, pro active<BR> attack on, on the predator. The guy who came in was very aggressive in that<BR> crime.<BR> And you have to go after him with the same kind of a force as a family and as a<BR> volunteer unit. If the police don't want to bring in Jeanne Boylan, the father does<BR> want<BR> to bring in Jeanne Boylan, it's his daughter, he can handle that in his own way.<BR> Unfortunately, there are... <P> Larry Schiller: Sure. <P> Marc Klaas: ...other family member, members who have intervened and said that<BR> she will not be coming close to that scene. They said it to me. They don't want me<BR> talking to the family. <P> Larry Schiller: Right. <P> Marc Klaas: They don't want Jeanne Boylan talking to the family. This is not... <P> Chris Matthews: Why not? <P> Marc Klaas: Well, you know what, Chris? This I don't know. But I can tell you this:<BR> Certainly, this is not the first time that Jeanne Boylan and I have gone into a<BR> situation like this and had the sloor dammed, the door slammed in our face. It also<BR> happened in the Susan Smith case. <P> Chris Matthews: And does that suggest to you guilt? <P> Marc Klaas: That suggests to me that there are things that somebody doesn't<BR> want out. And I don't know what those things are. <P> Larry Schiller: Look, you have to look at this... <P> Marc Klaas: And I don't know who that person would be. <P> Larry Schiller: In the JonBenet Ramsey case, the parents went to police<BR> immediately through attorneys. And the attorneys decided to treat the parents as<BR> if they<BR> were guilty, as if they had something to hide. <P> Chris Matthews: Right...<P> Larry Schiller: Now irrespective of whether, you know, JonBenet's parents were<BR> involved in the crime or not, they were not handled well by their advisors, their<BR> lawyers. <P> Chris Matthews: Yeah. <P> Larry Schiller: And here, one can only hope that the father and the mother, in<BR> essence, have enough emotion left to be able to handle themselves sir, first and<BR> properly so they don't convict themselves.<P> Chris Matthews: Yeah. <P> Marc Klaas: Their daugh, their daughter's life depends on it. <P> Chris Matthews: Thank you very much, gentlemen. Lawrence Schiller and Marc<BR> Klaas.

He says that the police were contacted through attorneys? I don't remember any attorneys at the Ramsey house when the police were botching, er, I mean investigating the crime.

I find him extremely irritating. And, IMHO, when he is on tv, he seems to answer questions in a way that will add mystery in the case. He probably does this to try and sell more books. Considering all the knowledge he has about the case, if he believes that one or more of the Ramseys are guilty, or even that they may be guilty, then he is stupid. If he has realized that the Ramseys are innocent, then he is being quite an a**hole to not come to their defense. The Ramseys have suffered a great deal and for him to capitalize on it the way he has is despicable.