#0, When Wolf case is heard
Posted by jameson on Apr-17-02 at 05:49 PM
<a href="http://www.dailyreportonline.com/news/2002/4/5050.HTM";>http://www.dailyreportonline.com/news/2002/4/5050.HTM<;/a><P><P>©Fulton County Daily Report, April 17, 2002<P><BR>Judge Sweeps Defamation Suit Against Ramseys Out of Court<P><P><P>R. Robin McDonald <P><BR>rmcdonald@amlaw.com <P><P><BR>A federal judge here has tossed out a former housekeeper's defamation suit against John and Patricia "Patsy" Ramsey. <P><BR>Linda Hoffman-Pugh was the housekeeper for the Ramseys when their 6-year-old daughter, JonBenet, was murdered in their Colorado home in 1996. Hoffman-Pugh allegedly was investigated as a suspect "based upon statements made to police by the Ramseys, but was later cleared," according to an order issued April 8 by U.S. District Judge Thomas W. Thrash Jr. The housekeeper also testified before a federal grand jury in Boulder, Colo., that was investigating the Ramseys in connection with their daughter's slaying. Nobody has been charged. <P><BR>The case is one of several defamation suits involving the Ramseys either as plaintiffs or defendants. The couple, who now lives in the Atlanta area, has filed several suits against media outlets. The suits spring from the massive coverage of their daughter's slaying and the subsequent criminal investigation. Several of those suits, in which the Ramsey's were plaintiffs, settled for undisclosed sums, according to their attorney, L. Lin Wood Jr. <P><BR>Attorneys representing former Boulder detective Steve Thomas, Dan Davis and St. Martin's Press also have verbally agreed to settle with the Ramseys for an undisclosed sum over Thomas and Davis' book, "JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation." <P><BR>A suit against the Ramseys by a man investigated but cleared by police is pending. So is a suit the Ramseys have filed against Court TV on behalf of their son. <P><BR>In her suit, Hoffman-Pugh claimed the Ramseys made statements about her in their 2000 book, "The Death of Innocence: The Untold Story of JonBenet's Murder and How its Exploitation Compromised the Pursuit of Truth. " She also said the Ramseys had made slanderous comments to the media that were "calculated to create the false impression that was the murderer of their daughter." <P><BR>She sued them for libel and slander, claiming that the Ramseys' statements deflected suspicion away from Patsy Ramsey, according to Thrash's order. Hoffmann-Pugh, v. Ramsey, No. 1:01-cv-630-TWT (N.D. Ga. April 8, 2002). <P><BR>Calling the 1996 death of JonBenet a "notorious murder," Thrash said any claims of slander made by Hoffman-Pugh were barred by the statute of limitations because more than a year lapsed between statements to the media about the housekeeper and filing of the suit. <P><b><BR>Thrash's order also noted that the Ramseys' book identifies as many as 15 suspects, both named and unnamed, whom the Ramseys believe the police department did not investigate adequately. The judge noted that the book created a profile of a killer who did not resemble Hoffman-Pugh. The profile was of a male, between the ages of 25 and 35, who is an ex-convict or associates with hardened criminals, and who had access to a stun gun. <P>The Ramseys "never named as a suspect, prime or otherwise," Thrash wrote. In fact, "A killer is not named in the book nor do claim to know the identity of the killer." <BR></b><P>The judge also noted that Patsy Ramsey described the housekeeper to police prior to the publication of the book as "a good person who would not hurt JonBenet." <P>~~~~~~~~~~<P><i>Seems to me that the same applies inthe Wolf case.
#1, Maybe
Posted by jameson on Apr-17-02 at 05:42 PM
In response to message #0
Maybe some of this will get slung out in court. Thomas was deposed in the Wolf case - so they expect his testimony to be important to the case. When that testimony comes in, LinWood will have the right (obligation) to show how credible Thomas is (or isn't) and I expect some of this WILL come out.<P>If Thomas isn't in Germany, he might be forced to appear. He may still have his day in court.
# 7,
Posted by on Dec-- at 00: AM
#0, When Wolf case is heard
Posted by jameson on Apr-17-02 at 05:49 PM
<a href="http://www.dailyreportonline.com/news/2002/4/5050.HTM";>http://www.dailyreportonline.com/news/2002/4/5050.HTM<;/a><P><P>©Fulton County Daily Report, April 17, 2002<P><BR>Judge Sweeps Defamation Suit Against Ramseys Out of Court<P><P><P>R. Robin McDonald <P><BR>rmcdonald@amlaw.com <P><P><BR>A federal judge here has tossed out a former housekeeper's defamation suit against John and Patricia "Patsy" Ramsey. <P><BR>Linda Hoffman-Pugh was the housekeeper for the Ramseys when their 6-year-old daughter, JonBenet, was murdered in their Colorado home in 1996. Hoffman-Pugh allegedly was investigated as a suspect "based upon statements made to police by the Ramseys, but was later cleared," according to an order issued April 8 by U.S. District Judge Thomas W. Thrash Jr. The housekeeper also testified before a federal grand jury in Boulder, Colo., that was investigating the Ramseys in connection with their daughter's slaying. Nobody has been charged. <P><BR>The case is one of several defamation suits involving the Ramseys either as plaintiffs or defendants. The couple, who now lives in the Atlanta area, has filed several suits against media outlets. The suits spring from the massive coverage of their daughter's slaying and the subsequent criminal investigation. Several of those suits, in which the Ramsey's were plaintiffs, settled for undisclosed sums, according to their attorney, L. Lin Wood Jr. <P><BR>Attorneys representing former Boulder detective Steve Thomas, Dan Davis and St. Martin's Press also have verbally agreed to settle with the Ramseys for an undisclosed sum over Thomas and Davis' book, "JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation." <P><BR>A suit against the Ramseys by a man investigated but cleared by police is pending. So is a suit the Ramseys have filed against Court TV on behalf of their son. <P><BR>In her suit, Hoffman-Pugh claimed the Ramseys made statements about her in their 2000 book, "The Death of Innocence: The Untold Story of JonBenet's Murder and How its Exploitation Compromised the Pursuit of Truth. " She also said the Ramseys had made slanderous comments to the media that were "calculated to create the false impression that was the murderer of their daughter." <P><BR>She sued them for libel and slander, claiming that the Ramseys' statements deflected suspicion away from Patsy Ramsey, according to Thrash's order. Hoffmann-Pugh, v. Ramsey, No. 1:01-cv-630-TWT (N.D. Ga. April 8, 2002). <P><BR>Calling the 1996 death of JonBenet a "notorious murder," Thrash said any claims of slander made by Hoffman-Pugh were barred by the statute of limitations because more than a year lapsed between statements to the media about the housekeeper and filing of the suit. <P><b><BR>Thrash's order also noted that the Ramseys' book identifies as many as 15 suspects, both named and unnamed, whom the Ramseys believe the police department did not investigate adequately. The judge noted that the book created a profile of a killer who did not resemble Hoffman-Pugh. The profile was of a male, between the ages of 25 and 35, who is an ex-convict or associates with hardened criminals, and who had access to a stun gun. <P>The Ramseys "never named as a suspect, prime or otherwise," Thrash wrote. In fact, "A killer is not named in the book nor do claim to know the identity of the killer." <BR></b><P>The judge also noted that Patsy Ramsey described the housekeeper to police prior to the publication of the book as "a good person who would not hurt JonBenet." <P>~~~~~~~~~~<P><i>Seems to me that the same applies inthe Wolf case.
#1, Maybe
Posted by jameson on Apr-17-02 at 05:42 PM
In response to message #0
Maybe some of this will get slung out in court. Thomas was deposed in the Wolf case - so they expect his testimony to be important to the case. When that testimony comes in, LinWood will have the right (obligation) to show how credible Thomas is (or isn't) and I expect some of this WILL come out.<P>If Thomas isn't in Germany, he might be forced to appear. He may still have his day in court.
#2, I think it
Posted by Joyce on Apr-19-02 at 08:30 AM
In response to message #0
had something to do with the records that Thomas 'procured' from the BPD. That may have not been made clear in the beginning. I dont think anyone wants to persue that avenue from the BPD's POV just because someone would ask HOW he got the records out of the PD and that would tend to (IMO) make the BPD look a little lax, and I dont think they want that.<P>JMO
#3, exactly
Posted by Shera on Apr-21-02 at 09:03 AM
In response to message #2
and if the "Doe's" of the case are still employed by the BPD, couldn't they face charges/dismissal?<P>Ole ST may have had ALOT of pressure to settle.<P>
#4, Money an issue?
Posted by Maikai on Apr-21-02 at 11:32 AM
In response to message #3
Petrocelli was quite clear in his book, that the <BR>Goldman case against OJ would cost $$$$...and they had to help raise the fees. Could it be Thomas was running out of money---and the firm wouldn't represent him pro bono? They knew a loser case when they saw it...and didn't want to tarnish their reputation? Another consideration Petrocelli writes about in his book---how the OJ case would affect the firm. <P>I dunno...put two and two together, and I think it's obvious why they settled.
#5, Why they settled.
Posted by Jarbo9 on Apr-21-02 at 12:13 PM
In response to message #4
Lin Wood has an excellent track record going in<BR>and the defense knew it. <P>Perhaps the defense paused to contemplate just<BR>what evidence Steve Thomas disclosed in his book<BR>that pointed to Patsy Ramsey. Maybe they were<BR>unable to locate it? <P>I tried and tried, but couldn't find it.<BR>
#6, How often do YOU go?
Posted by jameson on Feb-01-02 at 09:46 AM
In response to message #5
The stomach empties at a given rate - not the intestines.<P>While most people think daily bowel movements are normal, doctors will tell you that some people "go" once every two or three days and that is THEIR "normal".<P>It would be helpful if we knew if she had a bowel movement twice a day, once, once every other day - - but no one knows that so the pineapple question will remain a mystery.<P>I was told by investigators working on this case that she might well have eaten the pineapple before leaving home to go to the Whites' on Christmas day.<P>The doctors can not say for sure how long before death she ate that pineapple - just that it was among the last things she ate.<P>
#7, why don't you....
Posted by mommabigt on Feb-01-02 at 10:14 AM
In response to message #6
ask Patsy Ramsey how often JonBenet had a BM? I think she would know wouldn't she? I know about my own kids. They go daily, right after they come home from school. They do dont go at school, I've asked them. It's been a little joke in our family. And at times like weekends we are home, I know when they go, believe me. Ususally mid morning, a little break from cleaning thier rooms etc. lol....Anyway, I think most parents who really know their children, where they are and such have a pretty good idea. Maybe next time you speak or write to Patsy, you could ask her? Thanks.
# ts wake. Simple!,
Posted by on Dec-- at 00: AM
#6, How often do YOU go?
Posted by jameson on Feb-01-02 at 09:46 AM
In response to message #5
The stomach empties at a given rate - not the intestines.<P>While most people think daily bowel movements are normal, doctors will tell you that some people "go" once every two or three days and that is THEIR "normal".<P>It would be helpful if we knew if she had a bowel movement twice a day, once, once every other day - - but no one knows that so the pineapple question will remain a mystery.<P>I was told by investigators working on this case that she might well have eaten the pineapple before leaving home to go to the Whites' on Christmas day.<P>The doctors can not say for sure how long before death she ate that pineapple - just that it was among the last things she ate.<P>
#7, why don't you....
Posted by mommabigt on Feb-01-02 at 10:14 AM
In response to message #6
ask Patsy Ramsey how often JonBenet had a BM? I think she would know wouldn't she? I know about my own kids. They go daily, right after they come home from school. They do dont go at school, I've asked them. It's been a little joke in our family. And at times like weekends we are home, I know when they go, believe me. Ususally mid morning, a little break from cleaning thier rooms etc. lol....Anyway, I think most parents who really know their children, where they are and such have a pretty good idea. Maybe next time you speak or write to Patsy, you could ask her? Thanks.
#8, Geez
Posted by Ashley on Feb-01-02 at 10:27 AM
In response to message #7
I must be a bad mom, because I have no idea when my kids poop?
#11, never
Posted by mommabigt on Feb-01-02 at 10:45 AM
In response to message #8
I never said a bad mom wouldn't know...why take it so personal?
#9, Nah
Posted by jameson on Feb-01-02 at 10:28 AM
In response to message #7
I think you will understand that I have no intention of calling Patsy and asking this question. I was told by the investigators that they don't know how often JonBenét went and I am going to believe they asked that question. Patsy didn't know.<P>I never kept track of my kids' bowel movements once they were taking care of their own business. If you are on top of all that, you are a far more protective and concerned mother than I was. <P>If they had diarrhea or were stopped up, they let me know. But I would never ask if they had been "regular" this week.<P>Geesh - - they make jokes out of that in TV commercials you know.<P>Oh well, I am hoping the forum will get back to case and less on the "attack mode" - so let's move on.<P>It seems no one knows how often JonBenét had a bowel movement. She handled that herself.<P>
#12, nah, also...
Posted by mommabigt on Feb-01-02 at 10:50 AM
In response to message #9
I'm really not that over protective. I just know what my kids are doing most of the time. I never ask them if they are "regular this week". Wow, I'm really sorry I even asked......I wasn't attacking or flaming, or being hateful. Question was asked, Simple as that. Fair enough she doesn't know, maybe the questions were asked by detectives. I didn't know, but thought maybe you could be of help. Sorry you all took it the wrong way. By the way, I am NOT BORG, as you call it. Did you assume I was? Just asking. Back to case.
#21, They perhaps didnt serve it
Posted by Joyce on Apr-19-02 at 02:43 PM
In response to message #3
<BR>>Problem with that time table for me, <BR>>is that she wasn't at home <BR>>during 6 and 8; she was <BR>>at the Whites' house & they <BR>>said they didn't serve any pineapple. <P>but is it possiable she ate any candied pineapple? Or something that might resemble it when eaten? You know, like things that are on fruitcake (not that I beleive for a minute that a child would touch that). There are things that might exsist that might contain foods that might look like pinapple fiber and as I undestand it, that's what the disolved fiber in her tract looked like; as if it were pineapple fiber.<BR>
#10, Thomas concedes
Posted by LovelyPigeon on Feb-01-02 at 10:32 AM
In response to message #0
in his book that JonBenét could have eaten the pineapple before leaving for the Whites' house. pp304-5 hardback: <i><BR>"If the fruit was consumed before she left for the Whites' party, then given the rate of digestion that obviously stopped with her death, the evidence would indicate that she was probably killed shortly after she arrived home. This would be at the very outside edge of the time frame for the time of death. An intruder would have been incredibly bold to do it this way as the rest of the family prepared for bed." </i> <P>Here are two points where I agree with Steve Thomas' writing: I think JonBenét was killed shortly after the family returned home and went to bed. I think the intruder was incredibly bold (just as I think all intruders into occupied homes are incredibly bold).
#13, mommabigt
Posted by jameson on Feb-01-02 at 10:57 AM
In response to message #10
Well, I think it is a bit strange to think I would call Patsy up and asked if JonBenét moved her bowels every day. What person would do that? <P>Patsy lost her daughter - she has been through hell. The investigators have asked her a TON of questions. <P>She loves to talk about JonBenét. About how she loved to sing and dance and stand on her head. About how she loved crafts and friends and a special stuffed cat.<P>She does NOT sit and talk about the details of the murder or the autopsy. We have spoken about it before - and it was very difficult for her. Of course it was.<P>But I am not about to call her up and bring her back to that place. I think it would be cruel.<P>I spoke to Dr. Krugman about this - - and Dr. Dobersen. Lou Smit has spoken to me about this as have others. They don't know when she ate that pineapple - - it is certainly possible that she ate it at the Ramsey house before leaving for the Whites'.
#14, Yes, Thomas said it was possible
Posted by jameson on Apr-15-02 at 05:52 PM
In response to message #13
pp304-5 hardback: <BR> "If the fruit was consumed before she left for the Whites' party, then given the rate of digestion<BR> that obviously stopped with her death, the evidence would indicate that she was probably killed<BR> shortly after she arrived home. This would be at the very outside edge of the time frame for the<BR> time of death.
#15, extenuating circumstances
Posted by BraveHeart on Apr-17-02 at 04:42 PM
In response to message #14
What sort of factors might alter the normal rate of digestion?<BR>1. Being knocked unconscious?<BR>2. Being scared to death?<BR>3. Being choked?<BR>4. Being in a deep sleep?<BR>5. Being excited?<BR>6. Coming down with an illness?<P>
#16, Proof?
Posted by BraveHeart on Apr-17-02 at 04:54 PM
In response to message #15
What proof do we have that she ATE the pineapple?<BR>This might seem so obvious that one can overlook the fact that there are other ways for food to get into the stomach. <P>Did the coroner note food fibers caught in the teeth? No mention of it if he did. Was there pineapple juice on her fingers? Her cheek? Would eaten pineapple digest quicker than something delivered via a food tube and not mixed initially with saliva (Which method delivers the food in a child at the duodonem)?<P>I have been led to believe a coroner can tell what a person has had for their last meal, which makes this autopsy seem kind of lacka-daisical. Wouldn't it have helped if the greenish material was identified as well as the pineapple?<P>Just a little food for thought here.
#22, If the greenish material
Posted by Joyce on Apr-19-02 at 02:52 PM
In response to message #16
>Wouldn't it have helped <BR>>if the greenish material was identified <BR>>as well as the pineapple? <P>wasnt identified (and I don't know if it was or not) could it have been Citron? That is colored I believe and is used on fruitcake, which may also contain pinapples. <BR>
#17, I'm not convinced
Posted by Mikie on Apr-17-02 at 07:38 PM
In response to message #0
I still believe what I researched years ago. I found that it could have been less than an hour. I really don't believe the people you are asking are knowledgable about this particular point. I think you need to ask them to research the question before answering. The facts are that fruits in an empty stomach will pass very rapidly The juice leaves first, and with very little there, a little fiber will leave the stomach within an hour. Besides, the digestion process speeds up with excitement. I'm not going to go back and find my sources. I'm convinced. <P>Besides, it doesn't really matter much. Suppose she was fed a piece of pineapple by the killers prior to being killed. It does not identify them, although it gives support to the theory that she knew them.
#18, give it up
Posted by jameson on Apr-18-02 at 12:45 PM
In response to message #17
Even BORG King Steve Thomas admitted in his book that the pineapple could have been eaten just before they left the house to go to the Whites for dinner. <P>He said it was about the earliest it could have happened, but it was possible.<P>Dr. Dobersen, the coroner called in as a consultant after the autopsy, told me personally that she could have eaten it before leaving the house that afternoon.<P>It was past her stomach, in her intestines. <P>IMO, it makes MUCH more sense that she ate it in the afternoon.<P>I do NOT believe the killer took her from her bed for a snack and played with that exhausted child long enough for the pineapple to digest - - and then killed her. No way.
#19, But
Posted by Mikie on Apr-19-02 at 09:27 AM
In response to message #18
But if she ate it in the afternoon or before she left for dinner, what happened to the dinner in her stomach? It bypassed the pineapple? Or maybe she did not eat anything?
#20, No one knows what she ate
Posted by jameson on Apr-19-02 at 10:25 AM
In response to message #19
No one paid attention NO ONE!<P>They kids got into the apple juice punch stuff - - no alcohol. There were cocktail hotdogs served but no one knows if she had any. The Ramseys can't remember what was served for dinner - and the Whites haven't said - at least THAT hasn't leaked.<P>But no matter what it was, no one paid attention to what JonBenét did or didn't eat. <P>That is the reason the experts have been totally unable to determine when she ate the pineapple.
#23, My reply
Posted by Joyce on Apr-19-02 at 02:58 PM
In response to message #20
and of course I have to reply. My understanding on things (and I've been told this; I don't really know it), is that things which you are NOT allergic to are those things which WILL digest and the body NOT regard as a poison in your system. Some things which you are allergic to WILL digest and OTHER things you are allergic to will NOT digest but just stay there forever and 'putrify' in the tract. I have been told that and I don't know if it's true or not, but since some can be allergic to awfully strange things that could be it. It took me forever to finally understand that I could NOT eat ANY nuts in ANY form, and expecially not pecans. I couldn't beleive that anyone could be allergic to nuts, but I guess I am so I don't eat them. Not allergic to chocolate though.
# 0,
Posted by on Dec-- at 00: AM
#0, When Wolf case is heard
Posted by jameson on Apr-17-02 at 05:49 PM
<a href="http://www.dailyreportonline.com/news/2002/4/5050.HTM";>http://www.dailyreportonline.com/news/2002/4/5050.HTM<;/a><P><P>©Fulton County Daily Report, April 17, 2002<P><BR>Judge Sweeps Defamation Suit Against Ramseys Out of Court<P><P><P>R. Robin McDonald <P><BR>rmcdonald@amlaw.com <P><P><BR>A federal judge here has tossed out a former housekeeper's defamation suit against John and Patricia "Patsy" Ramsey. <P><BR>Linda Hoffman-Pugh was the housekeeper for the Ramseys when their 6-year-old daughter, JonBenet, was murdered in their Colorado home in 1996. Hoffman-Pugh allegedly was investigated as a suspect "based upon statements made to police by the Ramseys, but was later cleared," according to an order issued April 8 by U.S. District Judge Thomas W. Thrash Jr. The housekeeper also testified before a federal grand jury in Boulder, Colo., that was investigating the Ramseys in connection with their daughter's slaying. Nobody has been charged. <P><BR>The case is one of several defamation suits involving the Ramseys either as plaintiffs or defendants. The couple, who now lives in the Atlanta area, has filed several suits against media outlets. The suits spring from the massive coverage of their daughter's slaying and the subsequent criminal investigation. Several of those suits, in which the Ramsey's were plaintiffs, settled for undisclosed sums, according to their attorney, L. Lin Wood Jr. <P><BR>Attorneys representing former Boulder detective Steve Thomas, Dan Davis and St. Martin's Press also have verbally agreed to settle with the Ramseys for an undisclosed sum over Thomas and Davis' book, "JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation." <P><BR>A suit against the Ramseys by a man investigated but cleared by police is pending. So is a suit the Ramseys have filed against Court TV on behalf of their son. <P><BR>In her suit, Hoffman-Pugh claimed the Ramseys made statements about her in their 2000 book, "The Death of Innocence: The Untold Story of JonBenet's Murder and How its Exploitation Compromised the Pursuit of Truth. " She also said the Ramseys had made slanderous comments to the media that were "calculated to create the false impression that was the murderer of their daughter." <P><BR>She sued them for libel and slander, claiming that the Ramseys' statements deflected suspicion away from Patsy Ramsey, according to Thrash's order. Hoffmann-Pugh, v. Ramsey, No. 1:01-cv-630-TWT (N.D. Ga. April 8, 2002). <P><BR>Calling the 1996 death of JonBenet a "notorious murder," Thrash said any claims of slander made by Hoffman-Pugh were barred by the statute of limitations because more than a year lapsed between statements to the media about the housekeeper and filing of the suit. <P><b><BR>Thrash's order also noted that the Ramseys' book identifies as many as 15 suspects, both named and unnamed, whom the Ramseys believe the police department did not investigate adequately. The judge noted that the book created a profile of a killer who did not resemble Hoffman-Pugh. The profile was of a male, between the ages of 25 and 35, who is an ex-convict or associates with hardened criminals, and who had access to a stun gun. <P>The Ramseys "never named as a suspect, prime or otherwise," Thrash wrote. In fact, "A killer is not named in the book nor do claim to know the identity of the killer." <BR></b><P>The judge also noted that Patsy Ramsey described the housekeeper to police prior to the publication of the book as "a good person who would not hurt JonBenet." <P>~~~~~~~~~~<P><i>Seems to me that the same applies inthe Wolf case.
# ,
Posted by on Dec-- at 00: AM
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