140
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. You have indicated to me earlier
3 that Chris Wolf does not have a confirmed alibi,
4 right?
5 A Correct.
6 Q In the case where you do not have a
7 confirmed alibi and specifically with Chris Wolf, as
8 I understand it, his claim was that he was with
9 Jackie Dilson. Her claim was that he was not, that
10 he came in the early morning hours of the 26th and
11 the clothes were dirty, he took a shower.
12 Why did you not ask Chris Wolf to submit
13 to a polygraph test on the issue of his alibi?
14 MR. MILLER: Object to the basis of the
15 question. I don't think it's been established he
16 didn't.
17 Q (BY MR. WOOD) Well, I apologize. Chris
18 Wolf has testified that he was never asked to take a
19 polygraph test. Let me see if the Chief agrees with
20 that. Was he asked or was he not asked?
21 A I don't know.
22 Q Well, would you have expected him to be
23 asked in proper investigative techniques and
24 procedures particularly where we've got an alibi
25 situation as I have just described it?
141
1 A Not necessarily.
2 Q Why not?
3 A Many people that we have investigated, you
4 wouldn't necessarily ask them to take polygraphs.
5 Q But if you've got someone who has given
6 you -- that can't confirm an alibi and it's just a
7 matter of you either having to accept that person's
8 statement as true or not, isn't that an ideal
9 situation for you to ask for a polygraph?
10 A Well, you're taking it out of the context
11 of the whole of what we knew about the evidence of
12 the case and the evidence that we have from Chris
13 Wolf.
14 Q What if he takes a polygraph on the issue
15 of his alibi and he shows deception. That may change
16 the whole picture of Chris Wolf, couldn't it, Chief?
17 A Possibly.
18 Q So why wouldn't you find that out?
19 A Well, you don't have any other evidence
20 linking him to the crime.
21 Q You've got knowledge that he had an
22 association with Bill McReynolds?
23 A No other evidence linking him to the
24 crime, though.
25 Q But you've got evidence that linked Chris
142
1 Wolf to the Ramseys. You've got an article that he
2 wrote and referenced Access Graphics prior in time in
3 the Boulder -- that local business newspaper, right?
4 A Um-hum, yes.
5 Q You've got writings that indicate some
6 admitted dislike for Lockheed and suppliers of arms
7 to Third World people. Chris Wolf, you found that
8 out, didn't you?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did you know that you had a man that would
11 go and submit for money to go to parties where all of
12 the people there would be men and that he would strip
13 naked and allow them to fondle him and he would then
14 allow them to perform oral sex on him; did you ever
15 learn that about Chris Wolf?
16 A No.
17 Q Did you ever learn that Chris Wolf would
18 go to parties and allow women and men to touch him
19 and then have intercourse in front of other people
20 with women while the others watched; did you ever
21 learn that about Chris Wolf?
22 A Not to my knowledge.
23 Q Did you ever make any inquiries and
24 ascertain the use by Chris Wolf of illegal drugs?
25 A I don't know.
143
1 Q Did you ever follow up to find out about
2 Chris Wolf's subsequent employment history after
3 he -- the death of JonBent and whether he had any
4 jobs that might have put him into contact with young
5 females age four, five, six or seven?
6 A I don't know.
7 Q Did you ever learn that Chris Wolf would
8 take pictures of himself masturbating and display
9 them to other people?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you ever learn that Chris Wolf would
12 allow himself to be photographed nude and to have his
13 picture used in publications to sell erotic devices?
14 A No.
15 Q Don't you think that that is information
16 that you would want to know?
17 A Certainly.
18 Q Wouldn't a thorough investigation of Chris
19 Wolf have resulted in the Boulder Police Department
20 learning those facts about this man if you accept
21 that I'm telling you the truth about what he admitted
22 to when he was put under oath?
23 A I'm not sure.
24 Q There was some reference that there was a
25 police record that Chris Wolf had failed to notify
144
1 authorities about a change of his address. Are you
2 aware of that prior law enforcement matter as it
3 pertains to --
4 A That doesn't ring a bell.
5 Q Would you expect there to be a transcript
6 of the January 1997 attempts by Detective Thomas and
7 others to interview Chris Wolf?
8 A I don't know that they tape recorded that
9 or not.
10 Q If they did, and I think Detective Thomas
11 told me he thought he did, but would that tape still
12 exist, would -- it would be maintained?
13 A It should, yes.
14 Q No physical evidence of interviews or of
15 any type of matters relating to this case that are in
16 writing or otherwise physical items, tangible items
17 has been lost or destroyed? Maybe the question would
18 be destroyed --
19 A Not to my knowledge.
20 Q -- or discarded?
21 A Not to my knowledge.
22 Q Intentionally?
23 A Not to my knowledge.
24 Q What were the parameters that you were
25 working on in terms of the investigation as to when
145
1 you would ask individuals who were under suspicion to
2 submit to a polygraph test? The guidelines I guess
3 is what I'm asking for.
4 A Yeah, I think it was -- well, there's a
5 combination of things you look at. One would be to
6 what level they rose to be under suspicion, whether
7 you could answer some questions some other ways, the
8 level of cooperation, that sort of thing.
9 Q Well, where did Chris Wolf fit on that
10 scale if we had -- I'll put it on a one to ten, ten
11 being at the highest level of suspicion under the
12 umbrella, one being at the lowest level but still
13 under the umbrella of suspicion, where would you
14 place Chris Wolf on that scale at its highest point?
15 A Well, some of this involves my review of
16 '97 rather than just my knowledge of Chris Wolf. I
17 would say he was probably -- do you want me to give a
18 number, one to ten?
19 Q Yeah, on my one to ten scale, if you
20 would, to give me some idea of --
21 A Oh, probably six or seven.
22 Q Are you aware that after -- I mean there
23 comes a time where you exhaust your investigative
24 efforts with respect to a particular individual where
25 you just run out of things to do, true?
146
1 A Or you make a decision that this is not a
2 lead worth following anymore, so you may not totally
3 exhaust everything, but you get so much information
4 you've got to make some decisions on it, you have to.
5 You just don't have the resources to follow
6 everything up to final wherever it leads you. But
7 you have to make some decision at some point whether
8 this is panning out and getting stronger or this is
9 not, it's getting weaker and there is no evidence
10 right now that would lead us to believe we would get
11 any more evidence. So there are some decision points
12 that you have to make on different leads.
13 Q Did you ever ask Jackie Dilson to submit
14 to a polygraph examination?
15 A I don't know.
16 Q Was there ever a request to Chris Wolf to
17 do an opposite hand handwriting exemplar?
18 A I'm not aware of one but it would be
19 something that I would have to look at the file.
20 Q Are you aware of any requests made to
21 individuals under suspicion to give opposite hand
22 handwriting exemplars?
23 A Other than Patsy?
24 Q Yes, other than Patsy.
25 A No.
147
1 Q Why not?
2 A Well, that really is a decision made by
3 CBI and that would be a question that they would have
4 to answer as to why they would want a left-hand
5 exemplar.
6 Q From her and no one else?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Back in the early part of 1997?
9 A Correct.
10 Q When the investigation was still in its
11 early stages?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Who at CBI? Is Ubowski still there, is he
14 the one that --
15 A Chet Ubowski --
16 Q -- you believe would make that --
17 A Chet Ubowski is the one that I believe
18 would request that.
19 Q Are you aware from any source of any
20 information that either the Ramseys' attorneys or the
21 Ramseys' attorneys' investigators provided to the
22 Boulder Police Department that related to Chris Wolf?
23 A Yeah, I believe they provided some
24 information.
25 Q Tell me what you know about that.
148
1 A Boy, I haven't reviewed that for so long,
2 I don't know what the specific information is but I
3 know we received some.
4 Q You don't recall the date? Was it down
5 the road in the investigation?
6 A I think actually there were several times
7 where we received information on Chris Wolf.
8 Q Do you know who you received it from?
9 A I can't recall specifically.
10 Q Can you pin down the latest date you
11 believe you might have received any information about
12 Chris Wolf from a Ramsey investigator or attorney?
13 A I think in 2000.
14 Q What did you receive in 2000 about Chris
15 Wolf?
16 A I think we received a packet of
17 information that listed him in there as a possible
18 suspect.
19 Q Do you know who sent that to you? Was it
20 Ollie Gray?
21 A It may have been Ollie Gray.
22 Q Okay. And what was done in response to
23 that information?
24 A It was handed over to Tom Wickman to go
25 through that material and to look at it to see if
149
1 there were any loose ends that needed to be followed
2 up on or any leads in there that need to be looked
3 at.
4 Q I mean based on some things that I have
5 indicated to you today and because you're under the
6 confidentiality order that you're allowed to see,
7 would the Boulder Police Department be interested in
8 reviewing the deposition testimony of Chris Wolf?
9 A Yes.
10 MR. MILLER: Is that an offer?
11 MR. WOOD: Yeah, I think that within the
12 confines of the order I don't know that I can just
13 simply give it to you to say use it for purposes
14 unrelated to the investigative -- I'm not sure I have
15 the authority to give it to you when I know that it's
16 going to be looked at from an investigative
17 standpoint as opposed to limited to this litigation.
18 MR. MILLER: Now you have my problem.
19 MR. WOOD: But I'm going to solve my
20 problem because I --
21 MR. MILLER: All right. Well, then I --
22 MR. WOOD: I might -- I'm going to reserve
23 the right to make sure by reading the order that I
24 could do it. If I can, you will have it; if I can't,
25 I'll ask Judge Carnes for permission to do it or
150
1 Darnay Hoffman --
2 MR. MILLER: What other depositions might
3 you have that we would be interested in?
4 MR. WOOD: Steve Thomas.
5 MR. MILLER: We would love to have that
6 one as well.
7 MR. WOOD: I would think that Steve
8 Thomas's deposition would be of -- you know, you
9 would like to have that.
10 MR. MILLER: We would like to have them
11 both.
12 MR. WOOD: It's okay with me. Thomas has
13 filed -- let's go off the record for just a second.
14 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We're off the record at
15 approximately 12:34 p.m.
16 (Recess taken from 12:34 p.m. to 12:35
17 p.m.)
18 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We're on the record at
19 approximately 12:35 p.m.
20 Q (BY MR. WOOD) I was just pointing out
21 Chris Wolf did not claim confidentiality except three
22 or four specific portions of his deposition. Some of
23 that information I have talked about today because I
24 am allowed to do so under the protective order once
25 you sign on. So we'll get that to you and then I'll
151
1 find out if we can get the confidential portions to
2 you in light of the fact that you're part of the same
3 protective order where you would be obligated to not
4 disclose them without court order.
5 MR. MILLER: And without knowing who all's
6 depositions you have we would be interested in any
7 depositions of anybody that sheds any light on this
8 whole matter.
9 MR. WOOD: Okay. We're here. We're going
10 to try to get some more. I can tell you that Fleet
11 White is under subpoena from Darnay Hoffman. We
12 expect to depose him in December. His lawyer said
13 he's going to honor his subpoena.
14 MR. MILLER: Good luck.
15 MR. WOOD: Is he still in jail? Don't
16 answer that.
17 Q (BY MR. WOOD) If Chris Wolf has indicated
18 to us that he was told by members of the Boulder
19 Police Department that he had been cleared, he's
20 either -- he's mistaken or he's misunderstood what
21 somebody has said to him; is that fair?
22 A Oh, somebody may have used those words.
23 Q But that would not have been an accurate
24 description?
25 A Not in terms of officially, no.
152
1 Q Okay. Is there a difference between being
2 officially cleared and being unofficially cleared? I
3 thought earlier you told me that Wolf had not been
4 cleared. Are you telling me that he has been
5 unofficially cleared but not officially cleared?
6 A Well, I think the problem comes in
7 semantics and people use that term differently and
8 some detectives may use those words. If you're
9 asking me is he cleared, I would say -- tell you no.
10 I would tell anybody no. We haven't cleared anybody
11 in this case until we solve it. Then everybody
12 except the person responsible is cleared at that
13 point.
14 Q Tom Wickman contacted Wolf we're told in
15 1999 when he was living down in New Orleans and asked
16 him to come by the Boulder Police Department on his
17 next visit to Boulder. Do you have any information
18 about that in terms of, if true, why he would have
19 made that contact?
20 A When was that?
21 Q I think Jane Harmer may have been involved
22 in it, also. It was in, I want to say July of 1999,
23 Chief, but I would have to go back to my notes. I
24 clearly know it was 1999.
25 A I think that was in relation to the grand
153
1 jury investigation.
2 Q What role would Chris Wolf --
3 A See, I'm not sure I can talk about that.
4 I'm under order not to talk about grand jury stuff.
5 Q Did Tom Wickman work with the grand jury?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Jane Harmer?
8 A Yes.
9 Q As I understand it, the Boulder Police
10 Department does not have a polygraph polygrapher on
11 its staff?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q And were all of the polygraph examinations
14 performed in the Ramsey investigation done by FBI
15 examiners?
16 A I believe so.
17 Q Was there any input given to the Boulder
18 Police Department by the FBI as to who should or
19 should not be polygraphed?
20 A Not to me. I'm not aware of that during
21 my time on the investigation. I don't know if that
22 occurred prior to that.
23 Q You said the FBI had been involved since
24 early in the case?
25 A Yes.
154
1 Q How would you describe the FBI's level of
2 involvement? Minimal, moderate, significant, heavy?
3 A I think they were moderately involved.
4 Q Would that be consistent throughout?
5 A Yeah, that was pretty consistent.
6 Q What was the basis of their jurisdiction
7 to be involved in what was a state homicide case?
8 A I think just as a consultant to us in the
9 case. It's pretty typical that the FBI will help
10 local jurisdictions on major cases.
11 Q Would you believe that three FBI agents
12 prior to April the 30th of 1997 would have stated
13 that the intruder theory in this case was baloney?
14 A Would that surprise me?
15 Q Yeah.
16 A No.
17 Q Why would that not surprise you?
18 A I think there is a lot of evidence that
19 would point to it not being an intruder.
20 Q Right. But this is in the first few
21 months of 1997 --
22 A Um-hum.
23 Q -- prior to John and Patsy even being
24 formally interviewed on April the 30th --
25 A Um-hum.