Q. Okay. The -- there is the use of the word hobbled, do you know what that means?

A. In the context of police work?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What does that mean to hobble somebody?

A. When you have a violent or a physically resistive or combative individual or suspect who you
cannot otherwise control, the hobbling procedure, as I understand it, beyond handcuffs behind the back
include restraining the ankles and legs through the use of what is called a hobble.

Q. When you first met Chris Wolf and had this incident you have generally described for us, did you
have to hobble him?

A. I think I was involved in that personally. He was hobbled before he was transported to jail.

Q. Who helped you hobble him?

A. There were other officers present and I don't know that -- I can't speak for Gosage but if I
participated, and I may very well have, there were other people present, including I think a Detective
Whiten, a traffic sergeant, Detective Chromiak, maybe some uniform people.

Q. Why did you all have to hobble him?

A. Because he was physically uncooperative and resistive.

Q. How did you hobble him? In other words, you said it is always putting handcuffs behind the back
and restraining the ankles and legs. Is that the standard technique?

A. Yes, that's my --

Q. One way to do it?

A. -- that's my recollection of how he was hobbled that day.

Q. Would he let you take a picture of him?

A. No.

Q. Did you get any information from him in terms of being able to get answers to any questions?

A. As was the case with most of the interviews, I'm sure there's a transcription that will bear it out,
but I don't recall, as we sit here today, what information we may have gotten from him in that interview
room that particular day.

Q. Do you know if you got any?

A. As I sit here now, I don't know that we got any information from him that day, maybe beyond the
name, rank, serial number type of personal information.

Q. Do you know how it came to be that he was stopped by the Boulder Police Department and
brought to the office?

A. I do.

Q. Tell me about that.

A. The confidential informant in this case --

Q. That's Ms. Dilson?

A. Ms. Dilson.

Q. Okay.

A. Wanted to remain confidential as she had some concerns. And in attempting to maintain her CI
status, we used a ruse with some information that she had provided us about Mr. Wolf's driving record
and had him stopped and picked up legally on that basis.

Q. Why did you want him to provide you with a handwriting exemplar from the Ramsey ransom
note?

A. Because when information came into the Boulder Police Department suggesting as in this case as
detailed as Jackie Dilson made it appear, someone's possible involvement in this homicide, we had to
have some sort of initial screening process that was done on scores of people where you try to obtain
non-testimonial physical evidence to see if there was anything linking a particular individual to the
ransom note or the crime, as well as a preliminary interview and/or alibi confirmation.

Q. You didn't on -- in January you did not get a preliminary interview with Chris Wolf, right, tried but
failed?

A. That's right.

Q. Didn't get a handwriting exemplar, right?

A. That's right.

Q. Didn't get any non testimony -- testimonial physical evidence from him, did you?

A. No, sir.

Q. He really, short of not cooperating and becoming violent sufficiently that he had to be hobbled,
you really weren't able to conduct any type of an initial screening process on Chris Wolf in January of
1997, true?

A. True.

Q. And then it was 1998, February of 1998, when you were finally able to get him to provide
non-testimonial evidence?

A. As I said earlier, I'm not real sure of the date or it being February but I'll --

Q. Take a look at your book; it may be helpful in that. 271, the bottom of the page. "On February
25th the mayor chewed me out." Does that help you?

A. Sure.

Q. Okay.

A. I --

Q. So in February of 1998, that's when the Boulder Police Department first obtained non-testimonial
evidence from Chris Wolf, hair sample, DNA sample, and handwriting exemplar, right?

A. To my knowledge, yes.

Q. What was his alibi?

A. Well, as I mentioned earlier very briefly, after this difficult encounter with Mr. Wolf by Detective
Gosage and myself, it was determined at some level to attempt a different tact at gaining his
cooperation. And so they put Detective Weinheimer, possibly others, on to that lead and they took it
from there. And I don't know, I don't have any personal knowledge of how they wound up coming to
the determination that he was cleared other than letting the others in the investigative team know that
he had been sufficiently cleared.

Q. You don't know on what basis?

A. I don't.

Q. You don't know what Chris Wolf's alibi was?

A. I do not