Q. Lloyd Cunningham and Howard Ryle were obviously employed by the Ramsey family, true?

A. That was my belief.

Q. You knew that Lloyd Cunningham had in fact been the CBI examiner that had certified Chet
Ubowski?

A. No, but I do recall him saying he had done some training or had some capacity in that effect with
Mr. Ubowski.

Q. How about Howard Ryle, did you know him to be formerly with the CBI?

A. I didn't know he was previously with the CBI.

Q. Did?

A. Did not.

Q. I'm just trying -- I may be confused about which one was with the CBI or taught Mr. Ubowski?

A. One was with, I think, previously the San Francisco PD and you may be correct; the other one
may have been with CBI.