LAST EDITED ON May-18-03 AT 04:03 PM (EST)
Q. Thank you. Back when you all had the June 1998 presentation that is referred to -- is that
referred to as the VIP presentation? A. We can refer to it as that.
Q. Did you ever hear it referred to as that when you had the VIPs there?
A. I think so.
Q. Let's refer to it as the June 1998 VIP presentation so we know what we're talking about. Did, in
fact, the detectives during that presentation present a long list of suspects who had been considered and
dropped, including Randy Simons, Kevin Rayburn, Bud Henderson, Linda Hoffman-Pugh, Joe Barnhill
and Chris Wolf?
A. I would certainly have to review any notes and reports from the police files on that, but that's not
inconsistent with my recollection.
Q. You recall then the presentation including a statement that Chris Wolf was a suspect who had
been eliminated?
A. No, that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is I don't recall that -- there was a lot of
information exchanged over two days at this VIP presentation. It very well may have been said but
you asked me right now, I don't have that specific recollection about that particular individual.
Q. Do you know whether Chris Wolf's DNA was ever tested?
A. I have no personal knowledge of that.
Q. Was Chris Wolf one of the 73 individuals, that number that you referenced with respect to your
comments about 73 suspects having their handwriting analyzed, is he one of the 73?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, how did you come up with the number 73?
A. From Detective Trujillo's briefing to other detectives about CBI's examinations.
Q. Do you know whether -- do you know as a fact firsthand or from what you've heard whether
Chris Wolf's handwriting was ever analyzed by the Boulder Police Department?
A. As I said previously, I don't know the details of Detective Weinheimer's subsequent investigation
of Chris Wolf.
Q. Is the answer no, you don't know?
A. The answer to what?
Q. To my question.
A. What is the question, sir?
Q. Listen carefully. From -- my question was, do you know as a fact, firsthand or from what you
heard, whether Chris Wolf's handwriting was ever analyzed by the Boulder Police Department, yes or
no?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Do you know?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Wolf, I guess you can tell me this is pretty easy, maybe you'll
understand this one. Clearly you don't know whether he was -- his handwriting eliminated him as the
author of the note, do you?
A. As I have said, I don't know the details of Detective Weinheimer's investigation but took
Detective Weinheimer's statement that Chris Wolf was cleared at face value.
Q. Knowing what you know about how the Boulder Police Department, what would one use to clear
someone, what could possibly clear an individual here? One would be a solid alibi, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Verified, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What else?
A. Handwriting, certainly.
Q. Handwriting. That eliminated John Ramsey as the author of the ransom note?
A. Is that a question?
Q. Yes.
A. What is your question?
Q. You said handwriting and I said handwriting, that eliminated John Ramsey as the author of the
ransom note, true?
A. That's my understanding.
Q. All right. What else besides alibi and handwriting?
A. I don't know what was being done with it on the back end, but certainly a polygraph examination.
Q. So you would eliminate based solely on a polygraph?
A. No.
Q. All right. You would take it into consideration?
MR. DIAMOND: You have to answer audibly.
A. We would take our polygraph examinations into consideration, yes, sir.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) All of your polygraph examinations were done by the FBI, weren't they?
A. I believe so.
Q. You didn't have anybody on the Boulder Police Department that was trained in polygraph
examinations, did you?
A. I don't know if anybody received polygraph training but we did not have an in-house polygrapher.
Q. Okay. So we've got alibi, handwriting, polygraph, what else?
MR. DIAMOND: Polygraph coupled with other things he said.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Well, yeah, polygraph alone would not be sufficient to clear someone, would
it?
A. Not necessarily, no.
Q. Right. So now what else could be utilized, as you understood this investigation, to clear a
suspect?
A. Witnesses.
Q. Witnesses as to alibi?
A. Yes, certainly that.
Q. Witnesses as to what else?
A. Well, I think you're hitting the highlights. Beyond that, I don't know how specifically those
determinations beyond that, the obvious, people were being cleared.
Q. You're familiar with the use of the term forensics, aren't you?
A. I am.
Q. What would be forensic evidence that could clear someone in the JonBenet Ramsey
investigation?
A. Handwriting.
Q. Anything else?
MR. DIAMOND: You're saying standing by itself?
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Standing by itself, if I were going to say, well, John Doe has been eliminated
as a suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey investigation based on forensic evidence, what is the only
forensic evidence that you were aware of that could have itself eliminated someone from being
involved?
A. Besides the handwriting?
Q. I want the answer. If it's handwriting, if there was anything else, let me know that.
A. Well, I know the big controversy -- thank you very much -- was whether or not DNA was
clearing people in this case.
Q. And ultimately it was not, was it?
A. I don't know. I certainly don't hold myself out as a DNA expert.
Q. No, but I mean, you knew the approach the investigation was taking from the time of your
involvement through August of '98 and the DNA either quite simply either eliminated everybody or it
eliminated nobody if it wasn't a match, true?
A. There was a huge controversy about the DNA.
Q. So it was not in and of itself viewed as a forensic piece of evidence that eliminated anyone, was
it?
A. Correct.
Q. Other than handwriting, what else was the basis for a forensic evidence that would eliminate
someone as a suspect in the Ramsey case?
A. May I have just a moment?
Q. Sure.
(Discussion off the record between the deponent and Mr. Diamond.)
A. Mr. Wood, unless I'm missing something entirely obvious, no, the handwriting, the ransom note, et
cetera, was the sort of cornerstone piece of evidence in this case and I think that's how most people
were being cleared.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Well, when you say most people were being cleared, had the Boulder Police
Department concluded that the murderer and the author of the note were one and the same, that is to
say, had the Boulder Police Department concluded that there could not have been involvement by more
than one person?
A. I think there was some division on that point.
Q. Because actually the handwriting, only if eliminated under analysis, only really eliminates an
individual as the author of the note but does not in and of itself eliminate the person from involvement in
the crime, true?
A. I think the collective consensus was that certainly it wasn't a leap the author of the note was
involved in the crime.
Q. I don't think that would be a leap. But the question is elimination as the author of the note did not
in and of itself eliminate one from involvement in the crime, true?
A. By way of a conspiracy that you're suggesting that --
Q. I'm just suggesting straight up, sir, handwriting analysis that eliminates you as the author of the
note does not in and of itself eliminate you from involvement in the crime, true?
A. One could argue that, yes, sir.
Q. Fiber evidence was not a forensic test that was used to eliminate in and of itself, was it?
A. As far as elimination of suspects, I don't have firsthand knowledge of the fiber evidence testing
and that wasn't an assignment I had in this case. But no, I don't believe that fiber evidence in and of
itself was any sort of eliminator.
Q. Do you know whether any fiber tests were ever conducted on non-testimonial evidence
voluntarily provided by Chris Wolf, any fibers ever tested to your knowledge?
A. I got the impression that it was.
Q. Where did you get that impression?
A. From Jackie Dilson after she turned over to Investigator Ainsworth and/or Smit in June of '97
what she told me were, I think, bed linens, a leather jacket, a diary, maybe underwear, and she told me
that she had been told they were going to submit that for testing.
Q. Do you know whether it was tested?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you -- you certainly have no idea of what any of the results would have been if tested, true?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know how many handwriting exemplars Mr. Wolf gave?
A. No, as I said before I don't know the breadth or depth or extent of Mr. -- Detective
Weinheimer's investigation into Mr. Wolf.
Q. What was the standard practice in terms of when you were obtaining handwriting exemplars
from suspects for analysis, how many exemplars were standardly obtained?
A. It's my recollection that initially, and I can only speak to what myself and Gosage were doing
routinely, we were asking for the voluntary completion of what is known as a London letter, as well as
a second sheet including words or phrases from the ransom note and that initial screen was what I'm
assuming after booked into evidence was eventually going to CBI for analysis to see if there was any
reason to further investigate an individual.
Q. Your understanding is there were 73 suspects whose handwriting was analyzed?
A. At the time of the VIP presentation, at the time I left, yes --
Q. June of 1998?
A. -- that was the number.
Q. And of those 73, how many of those individuals were eliminated as the author of the note based
on the handwriting analysis itself?
A. And I'm not a handwriting expert, but under entire elimination, I don't know.
Q. I don't want to know about entire elimination unless you're using that in a phrase, maybe you are.
I want to -- you've got 73 people whose handwriting was tested, and you've either got a result from
CBI that says we've got a match, right, or you've got a result from CBI that says basically inconclusive
or you've got a result from CBI that says elimination, right?
A. No, I don't think it's that simple.
Q. Well, I'm not trying to make it more complicated than that. But maybe you know more about it
and if you do, then, that would be helpful for me to learn. I want to know, though, from the bottom line
that we can agree that it is simple when it comes to the question of elimination, that's simple because
that's one of the categories, elimination --
A. Right.
Q. -- right?
Right.
Q. And how many of the 73 were eliminated as the author of the note based on the handwriting
examples or exemplars?
A. I don't know.
Q. Not many, true?
A. I know that the majority fell into the no evidence to indicate category.
Q. But they couldn't go to elimination, could they?
A. Again, I don't know.
Q. Didn't you talk with the handwriting expert, sir?
A. Are we talking about the CBI expert?
Q. Any of them. There were four with respect to Patsy Ramsey, weren't there?
A. Yes.
Q. How many other of the 73 had four different examiners look at their handwriting?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know of any? Can you name one?
A. I'm trying to recall with those three additional examiners if other suspects' historical writings or
exemplars were provided to them. As I sit here today, I don't know. But if any, the number would be
few.
Q. Do you know whether the Boulder Police Department obtained historical writings with respect to
Chris Wolf's handwriting?
A. I don't know. I didn't get very far with Mr. Wolf, Mr. White -- or Mr. Wood, I'm sorry.
Q. That's okay. Fleet White's handwriting was tested?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Was he eliminated?
A. He fell into a category that he was no longer, if my understanding is correct, and this wasn't my
assignment, but by way of detective briefings, Mr. White was not in the running, if you will, by way of a
handwriting exemplar.
Q. My question is not in the running. My question is was he eliminated as the author of the note
based on a handwriting analysis conducted by the Boulder Police Department or the CBI?
A. I don't know what the CBI expert concluded as far as a categorical elimination of Mr. White.
Q. John Ramsey was categorically eliminated, wasn't he?
A. Again I would liken it to Mr. White. I simply learned that Mr. Ramsey was not a candidate
based on his handwriting.
Q. You don't know whether John Ramsey was eliminated by the examiner at CBI as an author of
the note based on that and his -- the analysis of his exemplars, you don't know that as we sit here
today?
A. He may very well have fallen into that majority of no evidence to indicate but if you're telling me
that he fell into the elimination category, I won't dispute that because we never had any concerns after
some of these results that he was the author of the note.
Q. Well, the question is not what I'm suggesting to you. Do you know? Do you have any idea
whether his report from CBI came back and said John Ramsey has been eliminated based on the CBI
analysis as the author of the ransom note? Do you know one way or the other, sir?
A. As to what category he fell into?
Q. Whether he was eliminated by the CBI analysis is my question, please, sir?
A. As to the category he fell into, including a category of elimination, I don't have personal
knowledge.
Q. Do you have any knowledge, secondary or otherwise?
A. As I told you a minute ago, Mr. Wood, it was my understanding from our briefings that he was
not a candidate as the author of the note. I don't know what else I can -- how many ways I can
answer that question for you.
Q. I just want to know if you know the results of the CBI analysis of John Ramsey's handwriting?
MR. DIAMOND: Any more clearly than he just told you?
MR. WOOD: That's my question. Do you want to answer for him? Because if so --
MR. DIAMOND: I think you --
MR. WOOD: -- I would love to swear you in and examine you under oath, but I think it would be a
waste of our time.
MR. DIAMOND: I think you're not listening to the answers. We're not --
MR. WOOD: Why don't you worry about your side of the table and let me worry about mine. If I'm
not understanding him, that's my fault. I mean, it's my walk away without the information, right? I
think I'm understanding. I'm just not sure I'm getting a straight answer. It seems to me that this
gentleman should know, as he claims to be one of the lead detectives on the case, whether John
Ramsey's CBI handwriting analysis came back elimination.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) And you don't know, do you?
A. As I have told you, Mr. Wood, I stand on my answer, yeah, I know that he was not -- that he
was eliminated by way of handwriting. But if you're asking me if the CBI examiner reached a
conclusion of elimination, I'm sitting here again telling you I don't have personal knowledge of that.
Q. Let me go that route because I think I understand you. Do you know how many of the 73
individuals were eliminated by way of handwriting?
A. By way of falling into the category of elimination.
Q. That were eliminated by way of handwriting, your words.
MR. DIAMOND: I think he means by the Boulder Police Department.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I mean that were eliminated by way of handwriting, certainly by the Boulder
Police Department. You're the one that says 73?
A. Out of those 73?
Q. Out of those 73, I want to know how many were eliminated by way of handwriting?
A. If you're asking me how many of those 73 fell into the elimination category based on question
document examiner conclusions, is that what you're asking me?
Q. I think so.
A. Yeah.
Q. What is the answer?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't have any idea?
A. No. As I have previously said on the record that number is probably very few. The majority of
those, as I have said, fell into the no evidence to indicate category.
Q. Did a lot of them have similarities?
A. Did a lot of who?
Q. A lot of the 73 people, did their -- did their analysis show similarities?
A. I don't know, I'm not a handwriting expert.